Kal Aero Mustang and Neptune question
Wed May 11, 2005 2:27 pm
Does anyone out there know what P-51D Kal Aero is offering for sale - listed as surplus to a museum collection and will only be sold to another museum.
Secondly, does anyone have any idea of how much work would be involved in gutting out borate tanks from a large plane - say a P-2 Neptune?
Thanks - Tom P.
Secondly, does anyone have any idea of how much work would be involved in gutting out borate tanks from a large plane - say a P-2 Neptune?
Thanks - Tom P.
Wed May 11, 2005 5:17 pm
Depends on where the tanks were located in the Neptune. If they were bomb bay only tanks, it wouldn't be too hard. IF the tank system was designed to have tanks on the forward EW floor and/or the sonobouy area, then it would be much more difficult.
The biggest thing about a Neptune is getting access to all the areas that trap and allow corrosion to live. The other big thing is making those 3350 TurboCompound engines run well enough on 100LL.
You can figure that at a minimum, every flexible hose and every foot of wire in a Neptune will need to be replaced to make it a viable and reliable warbird circuit aircraft.
BTW, the Neptune can be disassembled enough to road transport on 6 tractor-trailer flat beds..Been there and done it with a P2V-7 along with a partial reassembly.
The biggest thing about a Neptune is getting access to all the areas that trap and allow corrosion to live. The other big thing is making those 3350 TurboCompound engines run well enough on 100LL.
You can figure that at a minimum, every flexible hose and every foot of wire in a Neptune will need to be replaced to make it a viable and reliable warbird circuit aircraft.
BTW, the Neptune can be disassembled enough to road transport on 6 tractor-trailer flat beds..Been there and done it with a P2V-7 along with a partial reassembly.
Wed May 11, 2005 10:53 pm
cvairwerks,
thanks for the info - so if the said AC is already potentially in ferriable shape that would be a big plus right
??
Further along this line, I have never seen any interior photos of the neptune as they were rigged for patrol/ASW duty - anyone out there have a good site to point me to?
Thanks,
Tom P.
thanks for the info - so if the said AC is already potentially in ferriable shape that would be a big plus right
??
Further along this line, I have never seen any interior photos of the neptune as they were rigged for patrol/ASW duty - anyone out there have a good site to point me to?
Thanks,
Tom P.
Thu May 12, 2005 2:19 am
You'll have to browse through the images section of Google to find some interior shots.
Though of a couple of things that might help influence your decision on going after a Neptune...
You will need:
Hangar with a minimum of a 110' wide by 45' high door...
a pair of B40 wing jacks and a B25 or so nose jack
A Coleman tug....and the appropriate towbar
a 115v/400cy GPU
a 28VDC/ 2500+ amp GPU
hydraulic mule capable of probably 3000psi at 50 gpm
the mule and the GPU's will have to be engine driven, as you probably won't have enough 440/3 phase to run electric powered units
Bookcases for the several thousand pounds of manuals you will need to collect....
To safely jack the P2, you will need 7 friends/victims...It will take 5 to move it in and out of the hangar...oil changes won't be by the gallon, but rather by the barrel.....It will take you a couple of days to just lube the a/c after a wash job.....and factor in the price of a T-6 to reseal the fuel tanks...
Neat airplane but it will rack up the hours and dollars to get her in pristine shape and keep her there.
Though of a couple of things that might help influence your decision on going after a Neptune...
You will need:
Hangar with a minimum of a 110' wide by 45' high door...
a pair of B40 wing jacks and a B25 or so nose jack
A Coleman tug....and the appropriate towbar
a 115v/400cy GPU
a 28VDC/ 2500+ amp GPU
hydraulic mule capable of probably 3000psi at 50 gpm
the mule and the GPU's will have to be engine driven, as you probably won't have enough 440/3 phase to run electric powered units
Bookcases for the several thousand pounds of manuals you will need to collect....
To safely jack the P2, you will need 7 friends/victims...It will take 5 to move it in and out of the hangar...oil changes won't be by the gallon, but rather by the barrel.....It will take you a couple of days to just lube the a/c after a wash job.....and factor in the price of a T-6 to reseal the fuel tanks...
Neat airplane but it will rack up the hours and dollars to get her in pristine shape and keep her there.
Thu May 12, 2005 7:24 am
wendovertom wrote:cvairwerks,
thanks for the info - so if the said AC is already potentially in ferriable shape that would be a big plus right
Further along this line, I have never seen any interior photos of the neptune as they were rigged for patrol/ASW duty - anyone out there have a good site to point me to?
Thanks,
Tom P.
I can post some of the Neptune at the Mid Altantic Air Museum. Looks like they have a complete Navy package inside. Really a shame she isn't still flying. Any interest?
Thu May 12, 2005 10:36 am
Tim - that would be great !
cvairwerks - did you fly Navy?? The museum has 3 hangars that are big enough for a B-17/B-24 and one that is big enough for a B-29 (course it is not is the best shape). Humm. . . . the GPUs, towbar and tugs aren't an issue but the hydralics and resealing the tanks. . . . .
I guess a good question would be, "Who would be interested in seeing/flying on a P-2?" (this makes me sick to say) a flying machine that can't justify the effort to keep it in the air is hard to justify the effort to keep it there.
Its good to have a place to ask these questions and get honest answers!
Thanks,
Tom P
cvairwerks - did you fly Navy?? The museum has 3 hangars that are big enough for a B-17/B-24 and one that is big enough for a B-29 (course it is not is the best shape). Humm. . . . the GPUs, towbar and tugs aren't an issue but the hydralics and resealing the tanks. . . . .
I guess a good question would be, "Who would be interested in seeing/flying on a P-2?" (this makes me sick to say) a flying machine that can't justify the effort to keep it in the air is hard to justify the effort to keep it there.
Its good to have a place to ask these questions and get honest answers!
Thanks,
Tom P
Thu May 12, 2005 6:09 pm
My pictures are not as good as I hoped but here the are. Its a bit tight inside.
http://community.webshots.com/album/170499503CRnhCR/3
http://community.webshots.com/album/170499503CRnhCR/3
Thu May 12, 2005 8:29 pm
Tom: I'm not ex-military at all, just happened to work for GD and was takenover by Lockheed. I used to volunteer a considerable amount of time and effort to keep up all the aircraft at the old Southwest Air Museum here in Fort Worth. We managed to come across a P2V-7 that was scheduled to be cremated and were able to save it but not the F101s that were in the pile too. Together one other member and I proceded to move the Neptune out of the firepit and to an area of hardstand. Over the next few months, Doug and I managed to disassemble her down to the forward fuselage, aft fuselage and center section with the two outer wing panels. In all of this work we discovered that there was significant exfoliant corrosion in the center section lower spars, betweent he fuselage and the nacelles.
During a visit with AFM staffers over our operation, they recommneded that we halt work on the Neptune and strip it for parts we might need and that one in much better shape would be allocated to us. Just a few months later SAM collapsed, merged and the surviving members were practically run off by the management of the new organization. This is where I get much of my bitterness over the crap going on over the B-36...
As to putting a P2 in the air again, I think it would be pretty neat if you could put together a crew and find a decent aircraft and a workable location. I know that MAAM is flying one, so it's not entirely outof the question.
As to sealing the tanks, it would be a one time process that with just one or two people, would take several months, but when done, you would know that there was no corrosion in the tanks and that they would never leak again. In fact, you wouldn't have to do all of them at one time either....just the mains first and you would have to keep this in mind in fight planning.
During a visit with AFM staffers over our operation, they recommneded that we halt work on the Neptune and strip it for parts we might need and that one in much better shape would be allocated to us. Just a few months later SAM collapsed, merged and the surviving members were practically run off by the management of the new organization. This is where I get much of my bitterness over the crap going on over the B-36...
As to putting a P2 in the air again, I think it would be pretty neat if you could put together a crew and find a decent aircraft and a workable location. I know that MAAM is flying one, so it's not entirely outof the question.
As to sealing the tanks, it would be a one time process that with just one or two people, would take several months, but when done, you would know that there was no corrosion in the tanks and that they would never leak again. In fact, you wouldn't have to do all of them at one time either....just the mains first and you would have to keep this in mind in fight planning.
P2V
Thu May 12, 2005 10:31 pm
Hi Rob, I couldn't get your link to work. Did you mean www.vpnavy.com ?
I found a link there last night which promised a walkthrough a P2V-7,
but I haven't been able to make it work, despite a letter and reply from
co-author webmaster. You guys might try it and see..about 50 photos I'm
told.
www.patron28.org log on to site...in the headline-click Tours, on the Left
side will be a menu, select Neptune Aviation..a tour thru the P2V-7, select
from the list. Good luck!
I found a link there last night which promised a walkthrough a P2V-7,
but I haven't been able to make it work, despite a letter and reply from
co-author webmaster. You guys might try it and see..about 50 photos I'm
told.
www.patron28.org log on to site...in the headline-click Tours, on the Left
side will be a menu, select Neptune Aviation..a tour thru the P2V-7, select
from the list. Good luck!
P2V-7 Walkthru?
Thu May 12, 2005 11:20 pm
No worries..but did the Patrol Squadron 28 link I provided work?
Fri May 13, 2005 7:21 am
MAAM has not flown the P2V-7 is several years and I did not get the impression they had any plans to get it back into the air. It is a shame.
I guess on the last flight they lost all Hydraulics and landed her really hot. I can't remember the complete story but everyone in the aircraft kissed the ground.
I always thought a group could try and get some funding from VP groups. I bet a bunch of those guys would love to see one back in the air, or get their hands dirty again!
I guess on the last flight they lost all Hydraulics and landed her really hot. I can't remember the complete story but everyone in the aircraft kissed the ground.
I always thought a group could try and get some funding from VP groups. I bet a bunch of those guys would love to see one back in the air, or get their hands dirty again!
Fri May 13, 2005 9:48 am
Thanks everyone I did find the MAAM page and the "walk through" on thier sight - it is a neat plane!
Tim - loved the shot of the stove!! I suppose that if this came together a fire bomber would be pretty stripped out - but if we put the stove back in we could give rides and serve eggs and bacon - that might make the ride worth a couple hundred bucks eh?!
Tom P.
Tim - loved the shot of the stove!! I suppose that if this came together a fire bomber would be pretty stripped out - but if we put the stove back in we could give rides and serve eggs and bacon - that might make the ride worth a couple hundred bucks eh?!
Tom P.