Question on Volunteering for CAF

Paul Krumrei · **Joined:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm **Posts:** 1757

rreis wrote:

Paul Krumrei wrote:

I would certainly not be discouraged about it.

Again, the subject is that it left me with a bad taste in my mouth, so I wanted to get others opinions about it, but it all boils down to what I want to do.

And what is you want to do? Would offering them your help for them to have a fund raising calendar be out of the question? Even in some sort of profit-sharing arrangement, using the current one?

Instead of fuelling your anger try to think how to make the best of the situation. They do seem to have been cordial on their approach, don't start burning bridges too soon.

best regards,

I certainly didn't burn any bridges, they did.

Dan Newcomb · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:42 pm

Now that we have Paul's problem solved...

I just read the NTSB crash report on the B-26. It speaks for itself.

Dan

John Beyl · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:45 pm

Dan Newcomb wrote:

There is one thing that bothers me about this thread. I have been a member of the CAF for years and have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours working on our aircraft. I am very proud of what we do. But apparently just my membership in the CAF offends some people. Why do some of you tar all of us with the same brush? “ The CAF killed two of my friends!” What the heck is that all about? One guy meets a docent that seems rude and suddenly ALL CAF members are rude? Or, “I’m not joining until they get rid of the “tramp stamp””.

I have met some of the most wonderful people from all walks of life through my years of membership. I think to put all of us in the same pot is a gross mistake. A lot of people focus on trivia and miss the big picture. I guess I missed the big Earth shattering event that caused all the hostility towards the CAF. I have found the organization to be an incredibly satisfying and worthy endeavor.

And Paul please don’t let one incident keep you from “joining” something that you rightly perceive as worth while.

Dan

Dan,

Well Said. There are dud's in every organization, including the WIX board. I guess I never considered myself a bad representative of the CAF or a 'killer'. Man, some people just gotta go over the top with everything. Talk about broad stroke painting and totally slanderous remarks. Completely uncalled for. YIKES.

Paul,

As one of the core individuals associated with the Red Tail Project I can tell you with certainty nobody is mad at you. If Doug used the word 'mad', which would be out of character for him, I will be the first to say he was in error. There are concerns over copy write issues. Whether they apply in this instance is a matter of research which will take a bit of time. I'm guessing the request Doug made of you was simply to safeguard you and the CAF from encountering any unfavorable situations that would be detrimental to both the organization or you. Simple as that...nothing malicious as some are proposing. Doug was man enough to contact you off line to work out a solution. I’m disappointed in your decision to air your frustrations publically rather than working them out privately to the satisfaction of all. There are no “Rich guys” in the Red Tail project trying to squash anybody. The reason for that is…there are no rich guys in the Red Tail Project! We’re a bunch of working stiffs who’ve dedicated a fair piece of our lives to remember the sacrifices of others and present enjoyment for people like you.

To all,

If you don't like the branding issues, trademarks and other approaches being taken by the CAF to get their name recognized as well as aiding with raising more funding for it, by all means, I'm certain Steve Brown would love to see the business model and plan you have for your multi-million dollar ideas.

This entire thread frustrates the $hit out of me after spending 5 years of my life putting this aircraft back together. Thank you WIX board members.

John
CC Red Tail Mustang

Dan Newcomb · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:49 pm

John,

The next round is on me!!!!

Dan

Paul Krumrei · **Joined:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm **Posts:** 1757

I can certainly appriciate the hard work you did to get her back in the air, I am truly thankful for you in that respect.

Yes, Doug was greatfully kind and was nice to ask me about the calendar.

I think this is getting out of context in that I simply undestand that if I used any of the logos, or promised people that I was endoursed by the CAF but I didn't do anything wrong, or violate any copyrights, as I have looked into it with an attorney and read all the copyright laws.

I am ceratinly not bashing the CAF or the members of it, as I know they work very hard to get things completed and I certainly do not want to burn any bridges.

It is the whole idea of not allowing someone who took photos to sell those photos in a manner in which he tries to make a living.

I will be coming to the meeting tonight at 5:30, hoping that my misunderstanding is not judged as a cog in the system, but rather maybe an eye opener that people outside the Organization like to not only promote the history and legacy of the aircraft, but realistically, need to pay the light bills.

Now that being said, again, I would really like to resolve this issue and I will tonight when I talk to Amy, I just think that the CAF needs to really address these issues as I feel like am not at fault for anything other than trying to make a buck off of something that I personally made.

Dan Newcomb · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:27 pm

Paul I’m going to say one last thing and then I’m going to go back to the maintenance hanger where I belong.

Name the organization that spent thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours to, among other things, make a small effort to right an extreme wrong by showcasing the incredible and virtually unknown contribution made by those wonderful African- American pilots known as the Tuskegee Airman. For that alone I will always be a proud member of the CAF.

Dan
Semper Fi

Ztex · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:55 pm

While my comments were aimed at the CAF because the thread was all about the CAF, they are inline with other copyright issues that have come to fore in the recent past.
One WIX member had trouble with Yeager, others have talked about Lockheed and Boeing wanting money for the likeness of their designs to be put on model boxes and in art projects.
EAA and RARA with their copyrights...the whole thing is out of control. Its the big money vs the little money.

I have been a big fan of the CAF since I was a kid. I have had my faith in the CAF bashed about a time or two over the years....they have not done everything right...but in the past few years they have done some things to make me think that they care about the little people that buy t-shirts, attend airshow and tour their museums and airplanes. I think they went about this with Paul the right way...I just think it is wrong to make this sort of claim.

I'm no professional photographer ... but If we who take photos of things don't own our work then what good are copyrights to us that don't have an attorney on retainer?
I know there are people that put hard earned money and precious time into these projects and they deserve all the credit and glory that goes with that ... but don't step on the little guy in the meantime.

I sold a photo of an aircraft to a publication last year...who do I owe? The manufacturer? the painter? the pilot? the guys that paid for the gas? or do I need to split the $20 I earned with all of them? Should I have asked all of them before I took the photo? Before I sold it? Before it was published? I'm all about doing the right thing but sometimes I feel that everyone has a different idea of what that means.

Where does it end?

Paul Krumrei · **Joined:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm **Posts:** 1757

Dan Newcomb wrote:

Paul I’m going to say one last thing and then I’m going to go back to the maintenance hanger where I belong.

Name the organization that spent thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours to, among other things, make a small effort to right an extreme wrong by showcasing the incredible and virtually unknown contribution made by those wonderful African- American pilots known as the Tuskegee Airman. For that alone I will always be a proud member of the CAF.

Dan
Semper Fi

Fantasy of Flight?

Paul Krumrei · **Joined:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:06 pm **Posts:** 1757

Ztex wrote:

While my comments were aimed at the CAF because the thread was all about the CAF, they are inline with other copyright issues that have come to fore in the recent past.
One WIX member had trouble with Yeager, others have talked about Lockheed and Boeing wanting money for the likeness of their designs to be put on model boxes and in art projects.
EAA and RARA with their copyrights...the whole thing is out of control. Its the big money vs the little money.

I have been a big fan of the CAF since I was a kid. I have had my faith in the CAF bashed about a time or two over the years....they have not done everything right...but in the past few years they have done some things to make me think that they care about the little people that buy t-shirts, attend airshow and tour their museums and airplanes. I think they went about this with Paul the right way...I just think it is wrong to make this sort of claim.

I'm no professional photographer ... but If we who take photos of things don't own our work then what good are copyrights to us that don't have an attorney on retainer?
I know there are people that put hard earned money and precious time into these projects and they deserve all the credit and glory that goes with that ... but don't step on the little guy in the meantime.

I sold a photo of an aircraft to a publication last year...who do I owe? The manufacturer? the painter? the pilot? the guys that paid for the gas? or do I need to split the $20 I earned with all of them? Should I have asked all of them before I took the photo? Before I sold it? Before it was published? I'm all about doing the right thing but sometimes I feel that everyone has a different idea of what that means.

Where does it end?

That is what I am asking, where does it end. It is amazing that some small time guy like myself, can ruffle the feathers of a corporation so hard, it causes this much hate and finger pointing.

Guys, I am just a small little guy with a big mouth asking the question that all Americans should ask. Why? Why should I not be allowed to sell something I created, Why am shaking the bottle, because of people who asked those questions in the past, this is how are great nation was formed.
WHY WHY WHY is all I am asking.

I have the right to ask WHY and I will ask WHY because this seems to me, that if the Leader of the CAF has that much time on his hands to sit and watch one little guy on the WIX board, obviously they have nothing better to do, but put someone under a thumb for no reason.

To me, it looks like a Media nightmare. "Veteran gets big NO-NO from Veteran aircraft group"

Like I said, I am not bashing anyone or the organization. I just think that my rights are being violated as an American.

Reminds me of the People Vs. Larry Flint. Larry Flint wasn't against the church groups, he was against the idea of having the Church groups tell him what he can and cannot do.

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2933

Paul Krumrei wrote:

Dan Newcomb wrote:

Paul I’m going to say one last thing and then I’m going to go back to the maintenance hanger where I belong.

Name the organization that spent thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours to, among other things, make a small effort to right an extreme wrong by showcasing the incredible and virtually unknown contribution made by those wonderful African- American pilots known as the Tuskegee Airman. For that alone I will always be a proud member of the CAF.

Dan
Semper Fi

Fantasy of Flight?

Not even close. Before Don's Accident the Red Tail toured extensively around the country help tell the story of Tuskegee Airmen. IIRC Kermit's airplane made one trip to OSH and has not left Fantasy of Flight much since then...

YAF340 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:42 pm

I know for a fact that Kermit has made a few trips in his P51C, Gathering of Mustang's comes to mind. He flew a tribute flight there. He also is open every day and thousands of people get a bit of history. I have been at FoF when he flew former pilots. What a sight and feeling. We don't need to belittle anyone here. JOE

Zachary · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:05 pm

Ztex wrote:

EAA and RARA with their copyrights...the whole thing is out of control. Its the big money vs the little money.

Now before you start bashing EAA and other organizations that have copywrite/ownership disclaimers at their events - you should know that it is a standard that is across the board for all major sports franchises, concert venues, sports arenas, etc. This is nothing new, and it's hardly out of control. It is done for a reason. These organizations spend thousands, if not millions, to put on an event, a ball game, a horse race, a concert, etc. They expect to recoup the costs and hopefully make some profit via admissions, advertising, and commercial sales, including photo and video sales. I'm not saying Paul has a no right to sell his photos, but when it comes to photos or videos taken at a hosted event (like the Reno Air Races or AirVenture), then the host organization is within its rights to determine how photos and video taken at said event are used. EAA (for example) has absolutely no problem with folks taking pictures for private use, or even sharing photos and videos on blogs, websites, etc. But when someone tries to make money off AirVenture by selling photos or video footage without prior permission or contract, then there is a problem. The organization(s) are protecting their commercial interests, which include how the brand is portrayed in the public domain.

Think of it this way, say you are in a small band, and you have put forth your own money for the instruments, the advertising, travel to the venue, etc, and you put on a concert somewhere. Someone in the audience records the concert and starts selling DVDs or CDs of your music, but they didn't ask your permission to do so and you don't get a dime from the sales. Do you just stand by and let them continue (after all, it's only "little money"), or do you go to the effort of protecting your own interests?

EDIT: I would also add that while one might consider him/herself to be a "little guy" in the scheme of things trying to make a buck, just think of how many "little guys" attend an event like AirVenture or Reno...that adds up to potentially thousands (if not more) of dollars in lost revenue if each one starts selling photos or videos taken from the event. Despite the perception, EAA as an example is not some giant corporate behemoth with millions of dollars at its disposal. Even a couple of thousand dollars lost to one "little guy" can result in an off budget for a department or the entire organization, and it effects people and programs in a very real way.

Speedy · **Posted:** Wed Aug 12, 2009 4:06 pm

YAF340 wrote:

I know for a fact that Kermit has made a few trips in his P51C, Gathering of Mustang's comes to mind. He flew a tribute flight there. He also is open every day and thousands of people get a bit of history. I have been at FoF when he flew former pilots. What a sight and feeling. We don't need to belittle anyone here. JOE

I'm glad Mr. Weeks restored that airplane and still flies it on special occasions. It's too bad that it couldn't have been restored to honor Paul Mantz...one of aviation's pioneers...who raced and set several speed records in that airplane.

I guess when I get the lotto I'll be knocking on Mr. Week's door. :-)

Warbirdnerd · **Joined:** Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:34 pm **Posts:** 2933

YAF340 wrote:

I know for a fact that Kermit has made a few trips in his P51C, Gathering of Mustang's comes to mind. He flew a tribute flight there. He also is open every day and thousands of people get a bit of history. I have been at FoF when he flew former pilots. What a sight and feeling. We don't need to belittle anyone here. JOE

Not sure where I belittled anyone. I have nothing but respect for Mr Weeks, his collection, and willingness to share it with everyone.

The CAF's Redtail not only attended numerous airshows across the country, but was also the focal point for several school programs where students got to speak with Tuskegee Airmen and see the plane in action.

famvburg · **Joined:** Fri Oct 07, 2005 9:41 am **Posts:** 540

Unless I'm missing something, I think you mean"LegEnd".

Paul Krumrei wrote:

I am certainly going to repost it. With the logo, The Returning Legand.

I am tired of people telling me I cannot sell my own darn photos.

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