Fri May 20, 2005 4:14 pm
first of all it's good to hear u steve, needless to say your opinion is highly appreciated. Now about my point.
I talked about this episode with several pilots (a couple of military pilots and a pitts one), and they all gave a different opinion!
When I say the climb was too steep I meant that the eccessive loss of kinetic energy was caused by an improper climb or probably by a low speed start..
I was always told that when u find yourself in a critical flight attitude u dont have to follow your instinct, but u must second the plane attitude for a second to understand what's really going on (I've never found myself in an inverted spin, but I guess it's not the best place to be..). An improper input might put yourself in a more critical situation.
I've expressed my opinions according to my really modest experience and about what I was told by professional pilots about the matter, hope I made myself clearer!
As per the height or energy question, well this is a matter of opinions. I agree with u that performing a correct aerobatic display would be the solution, but I guess u need a safety layer just in case u make some mistake, dont u think so?
Alex
P.S.
About the loop. If u do one with your Sea Fury, but u lose almost all yr kinetic energy on your way up, and u reach the top of it at full throttle but almost zero airspeed, doesnt the prop torque affect the plane behaviour?
I talked about this episode with several pilots (a couple of military pilots and a pitts one), and they all gave a different opinion!
When I say the climb was too steep I meant that the eccessive loss of kinetic energy was caused by an improper climb or probably by a low speed start..
I was always told that when u find yourself in a critical flight attitude u dont have to follow your instinct, but u must second the plane attitude for a second to understand what's really going on (I've never found myself in an inverted spin, but I guess it's not the best place to be..). An improper input might put yourself in a more critical situation.
I've expressed my opinions according to my really modest experience and about what I was told by professional pilots about the matter, hope I made myself clearer!
As per the height or energy question, well this is a matter of opinions. I agree with u that performing a correct aerobatic display would be the solution, but I guess u need a safety layer just in case u make some mistake, dont u think so?
Alex
P.S.
About the loop. If u do one with your Sea Fury, but u lose almost all yr kinetic energy on your way up, and u reach the top of it at full throttle but almost zero airspeed, doesnt the prop torque affect the plane behaviour?
Last edited by italian harvard on Fri May 20, 2005 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri May 20, 2005 4:14 pm
Steve, Welcome back:
My guess is since the Sea Fury is a very stable plane, you had an inverted stall at towards the top of the maneuver. You most likely had enough speed to prevent the torque roll, unlike the Me 109 example.
At that point you fell through the top of the loop and recovered with no problem.
Anyone want to guess what happened?
My guess is since the Sea Fury is a very stable plane, you had an inverted stall at towards the top of the maneuver. You most likely had enough speed to prevent the torque roll, unlike the Me 109 example.
At that point you fell through the top of the loop and recovered with no problem.
Fri May 20, 2005 4:16 pm
srpatterson wrote:We don't need to perform aerobatics at greater altitude, we need to not stall/spin while performing display aerobatics. Very embarassing, especially when captured on video.
I guess he didnt intentionally stall/spin the 109, did he?
Alex
Fri May 20, 2005 4:24 pm
Steve,
On your flight in the Sea Fury at below entry speed for the loop, I'm guessing that as you got too slow over the top, you un-G'd the aircraft and allowed the nose to come below the horizon to regain flying speed. Also hopefully the stick was in the neutral position and ailerons back to neutral.
JB
On your flight in the Sea Fury at below entry speed for the loop, I'm guessing that as you got too slow over the top, you un-G'd the aircraft and allowed the nose to come below the horizon to regain flying speed. Also hopefully the stick was in the neutral position and ailerons back to neutral.
JB
Fri May 20, 2005 8:52 pm
dhfan wrote:The Mosquito accident was nothing to do with pilot error. It was a problem with the carburettor on the port engine causing a temporary loss of power during a wingover.
Interesting article by Skip Holm. One fairly glaring error is the reference to the CAF Ghost Squadron being leased for the BofB film. At the time the film was made, the aircraft were still in the Spanish Air Force and, I believe, flown by Spanish pilots.
The CAF had aquired the planes and they were flown by Lloyd Nolan, Lefty Gardner, and I believe Connie Edwards. There is a picture of the three in Luftwaffe uniforms in the CAF Blue book.
Sat May 21, 2005 11:53 am
Flashonyrsix wrote:The CAF had aquired the planes and they were flown by Lloyd Nolan, Lefty Gardner, and I believe Connie Edwards. There is a picture of the three in Luftwaffe uniforms in the CAF Blue book.
IIRC Connie Edwards had reckoned he been 'shot down' mores times than any other pilot during the filming.....
Sat May 21, 2005 1:39 pm
Hi Flashonyrsix and fireball:
I didn't follow that, and not sure how it relates to an imperiled 109 at an airshow? Can you explain?
I didn't follow that, and not sure how it relates to an imperiled 109 at an airshow? Can you explain?
Sat May 21, 2005 2:05 pm
HarvardIV wrote:Hi Flashonyrsix and fireball:
I didn't follow that, and not sure how it relates to an imperiled 109 at an airshow? Can you explain?
Pardon me, I do so humbly apologise m'lud. It won't 'appen again yer worship....
Lets hope the pilot of said 109 thinks the same way.
Sat May 21, 2005 2:41 pm
Welcome back Steve!
I'll go with Steve, barring a 109 pilot coming in here and setting us straight, who would probably say the same thing also. I still think the dude should be cut some slack though.
Thanks again Steve!
I'll go with Steve, barring a 109 pilot coming in here and setting us straight, who would probably say the same thing also. I still think the dude should be cut some slack though.
Thanks again Steve!
Sat May 21, 2005 4:32 pm
HarvardIV wrote:Yes, it sounds a lot like a Spitfire or Mustang!
No disrespect, but you think it really sounds like a Mustang?!?! I can totally hear a difference.
Sat May 21, 2005 7:32 pm
Wish my DB powered Dodge Dakota sounded like that!!
Sat May 21, 2005 7:49 pm
I 100% agree with srpatterson.
Its all about energy management, and in this case it certainly looks as though there was a lack of this.
As Steve stated you need to have a gate speed (minimum energy speed for certain maneuvers) and never ever, disregard that speed if that number is not on the clock you abandon the figure.
In answer to italian harvard, it is quite possible that the aircraft began to torque roll at the top of the loop, but once again this comes down to not following your gate speed, from the point after that the aircraft begins to enter the incipient stage of a spin at which point the pilot looks to recover quite smartly but about 90 degrees off axis.
A number of people have mentioned the pilots skill level and that he would not have been given the opportunity to fly these types unless he had been flying forever with superior skill blah blah blah....
This may be true, it may not be, some people get to this level not necesarrily by experience or skill but by situation (right place at the right time).
I have no doubt that the pilot is suitably qualified, probably has a huge amount of experience and has been flying for years....... but, we all make mistakes and I would bet he was sitting in his comfy lounge chair at home having a stiff whiskey after the fact and saying to himself " darn, I wont be doing that again".
We all learn from our mistakes and even those with all the experience under the sun make mistakes from time to time, this I believe was just such a time.
Its all about energy management, and in this case it certainly looks as though there was a lack of this.
As Steve stated you need to have a gate speed (minimum energy speed for certain maneuvers) and never ever, disregard that speed if that number is not on the clock you abandon the figure.
In answer to italian harvard, it is quite possible that the aircraft began to torque roll at the top of the loop, but once again this comes down to not following your gate speed, from the point after that the aircraft begins to enter the incipient stage of a spin at which point the pilot looks to recover quite smartly but about 90 degrees off axis.
A number of people have mentioned the pilots skill level and that he would not have been given the opportunity to fly these types unless he had been flying forever with superior skill blah blah blah....
This may be true, it may not be, some people get to this level not necesarrily by experience or skill but by situation (right place at the right time).
I have no doubt that the pilot is suitably qualified, probably has a huge amount of experience and has been flying for years....... but, we all make mistakes and I would bet he was sitting in his comfy lounge chair at home having a stiff whiskey after the fact and saying to himself " darn, I wont be doing that again".
We all learn from our mistakes and even those with all the experience under the sun make mistakes from time to time, this I believe was just such a time.
Sat May 21, 2005 8:47 pm
No disrespect, but you think it really sounds like a Mustang?!?! I can totally hear a difference.
I'm not a musician, and I don't pay such close attention. I guess if I was a total warbird fanatic I could tell, so probably I'm only a moderated fanatic.
Sun May 22, 2005 5:42 am
Dragonflydh90 wrote:I 100% agree with srpatterson.
Its all about energy management, and in this case it certainly looks as though there was a lack of this.
As Steve stated you need to have a gate speed (minimum energy speed for certain maneuvers) and never ever, disregard that speed if that number is not on the clock you abandon the figure.
In answer to italian harvard, it is quite possible that the aircraft began to torque roll at the top of the loop, but once again this comes down to not following your gate speed, from the point after that the aircraft begins to enter the incipient stage of a spin at which point the pilot looks to recover quite smartly but about 90 degrees off axis.
A number of people have mentioned the pilots skill level and that he would not have been given the opportunity to fly these types unless he had been flying forever with superior skill blah blah blah....
This may be true, it may not be, some people get to this level not necesarrily by experience or skill but by situation (right place at the right time).
I have no doubt that the pilot is suitably qualified, probably has a huge amount of experience and has been flying for years....... but, we all make mistakes and I would bet he was sitting in his comfy lounge chair at home having a stiff whiskey after the fact and saying to himself " darn, I wont be doing that again".
We all learn from our mistakes and even those with all the experience under the sun make mistakes from time to time, this I believe was just such a time.
well I do completely agree that he lost his kinetic energy on his way up or didnt have it when starting the manouver, but once again if such things happen why risking to have another accident? We can have slow flypasts, but for the aerobatics a little higher altitude margin wouldnt hurt anybody I guess.
The DB.601/605/603 has a supercharger on the left side that made a typical powerful turbine whistle, the rumble of the engine is pretty much the same thing as a merlin. So when u hear a growling 12V engine plus a whistle u r prolly seeing a DB powered engine (or a Subaru Impreza WRC!!)
Cheers
Alex
Sun May 22, 2005 9:12 am
Ha, yes, the DB has a very low growl compared to the clear note of the Merlin. And the Griffon sounds even clearer than a Merlin.
Guys, please stop commenting this, you sound like a bunch of sport fans sitting in the arena, bitchin', talkin' and howlin' about the game in front of ya...
Guys, please stop commenting this, you sound like a bunch of sport fans sitting in the arena, bitchin', talkin' and howlin' about the game in front of ya...