AT-6 and SNJ's used for gunnery training

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:10 pm

Greetings,

I'm not sure if this has been discussed previously but my search came up empty. I wanted to ask the wise folks on here about T-6 or SNJs used for gunnery training. I am more interesting in the aircraft that had aft facing flexible gun mounts. I have heard that the SNJ-5B was the Navy version of this trainer. Is this acurate? Are there other verisions?

My father once owned an SNJ project that had he original mounting arrangement but I don't recall seeing other similar restored examples. I think WIXer "Quest Master" has a project as well.

I have always thought this was a pretty interesting arrangement and always wondered why I haven't seen more of these out in the Wardbird world. Anyone know of some restored examples out there? Better yet does anyone.have pictures?

thanks in advance
Ryan

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11330

The Air Museum's SNJ-5 has the swivel seat although the gun is long gone. Anything with a swivel seat was likely to have been used as a gunnery trainer, right? I'm guessing all the T-6Gs had the gunnery stuff removed during overhaul.

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:37 pm

Hey Ryan,

Here are a couple of shots for you.

I know there are several complete rear gunner setups in AT-6D's out there. I have helped several folks find the parts needed for their installation. But just like you said I haven't seen one installed lately.

snj-5 · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:53 pm

My SNJ-5 (BuNo 91077, AAF 44-81371) was converted to SNJ-5B
configuration from November 1952 - February 3rd, 1953 at the
Overhaul and Repair depot @ Pensacola (the aircraft information record
card says it was converted for use as a 'dedicated gunnery trainer')

After that, it was assigned to BTU-3 (Basic Training Unit #3) at Saufley
Field, Florida and was used in tactical training for the Naval Air Basic
Training Command.

There are a number of T-6 aircraft flying around with the rear gun
equipment mounted (N3173N & N1666T are a couple of examples),
but I don't know if they are "real" SNJ-5B aircraft or not. And then
I can't remember which component is hard to find... The gun mount
ring? Or the trolley? Or both...???

I still have the original fuselage truss for my SNJ-5, but I used
a later (T-6F style) truss with the fixed rear seat configuration in
the restoration, as the later style truss I had on-hand was in excellent
condition (the original truss has "issues").

Bela P. Havasreti

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:28 pm

Taigh,

I just had a feeling that you would have something valuable to say about this :-)

Thank you guys for the info. I am interested to know if the twin .30 cal mount similar to the SBD was ever used in the SNJ? We have a couple of those around left over from a stash of 25 mounts that we found in a junk yeard.

Ryan

Rauhbatz · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:34 pm

Our CAF Dixie Wing leader has a SNJ gunnery trainer..used to be at Pensacola.

Hit the www.dixiewing.org website and email our wing leader...

astixjr · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:52 pm

On and off, I've been looking for T-6/SNJ armament parts for years. The gunsights are relatively easy to find, they come up on eBay at least once a month. As far as the rest of the stuff, it may as well be made of the same stuff Grumman used to make Bearcats, Unobtanium. Seriously, when you consider how many T-6s and SNJs were made and then how many of them had guns, you would think this stuff would be easy to find. how often do you see a T-6 or SNJ with anything more than dummy gun barrels in the nose and wing? I've purchased two gunsights from eBay in the last few months but the last time I saw any gunsight reflectors was in Bannair's inventory. Should have bought one before they were lost in the fire. Bummer. Thanks to Taigh, I have the rear scarf ring that I traded for a Norden but that's it.

Somewhere on WIX there is a thread about the rear seat pivot mechanism. Tim Savage and a few other guys commented on some problems (safety issues) with the mechanism. I know the rear seat pivot mechanism on my father's plane is complete but fixed in place. The rear canopy system is gone and I doubt Lance has any more of those parts.

Hal B · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:11 pm

N190FS "Hog Wild Gunner" has most of the armament components in the back; swivel seat, gunners hood, mount and trolley, and ammo boxes. I just installed/uninstalled the dummy gun at one of our open houses in the last couple of weeks...

Chunks · **Joined:** Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:02 am **Posts:** 361

What a great thread. I've learned a lot about T-6s in the last several years, most of it of no value to anyone but myself. There are so many variations and the parts catalog and erection manuals are vague in the armament and fixtures area. Hope I'm not hijacking, but I took a few pics this evening and came home with the intention of posting a request for information in the maintenance thread. I hope you don't mind if I post them here. My intentions are to install the swivel seat and I would love to see any and all pictures concerning the rear office, the gun mount, ammo boxes etc. I recently purchased a tail cone that was set up for the swivel seat. The one I had was an F variant. This one also has the camera doors and I would love to see pictures of how all of this worked with the canvas bag, the hinged floor and what the 4 mounts in the bottom of the baggage area are for. I have the frames that insert in there, but need a picture of it installed so I can understand.

I also have these 2 variations and would like to understand the differences and see installed pictures if available.

Thanks in advance, and I apologize again for jumping in here.

Chunks

Hal B · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Chunks wrote:

Chunks

Those look like the camera mounts at first glance...

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:45 pm

I don't have any pics of the camera doors, but they do come in handy for flour bombing and aerial burials.

Tom N · **Posted:** Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:51 pm

We have an SNJ-4 and it has the mounts shown above and doors in the area aft of the back seat. If you need pictures, I could take some on Sat.
Tom

Chunks · **Joined:** Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:02 am **Posts:** 361

Hope I'm not replying too late...yes! pictures please.

Chunks

Jack Cook · **Posted:** Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:16 pm

A couple of the X-Paraguyan T-6s we got had bomb bay doors in the rear fuselage (or maybe camera doors) :!:

Holedigger · **Posted:** Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:21 pm

That was the "in-flight" toilet Jack! :hide:

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AT-6 and SNJ's used for gunnery training

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