Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:36 pm
Camera door pics I took earlier today.
Chunks
Chunks
T-6 SNJ camera installation
Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:56 pm
There are a few airplanes types that I like to think I know pretty well. Not many, just a few. One of them is the T-6/SNJ series. Once again, I am being reminded here that I really don't know much at all. I have never, ever, noticed these mini bomb bay like camera doors on a T-6/SNJ and I have no idea if our SNJ-5 has them now or ever had them in the past. I read Taigh's post two times and still could not picture what he was on about until Chunks posted some images of the doors. Here's a few shots from the set of drawings that were in my hangar. Taigh is correct, what I'm thinking is a camera port is just the A-2 viewfinder port.
Hijack
Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:15 am
And since I've helped hijack rwdfresno's thread (sorry Ryan), here's a few images from the drawing book that shows the rear gun position. I will make another effort to get all 180 pages of this book scanned and somehow, make it available to people that want it or need it. I gave up on this project two years ago but flatbed and drum scanners are more available now and the cost to use them has come down considerably.
Re: Hijack
Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:53 am
astixjr wrote:And since I've helped hijack rwdfresno's thread (sorry Ryan), ...
You can hijack my thread anytime with this kind of great information. Thanks for contributing, this turned out to be a very interesting thread.
Ryan
Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:38 pm
I have a single support for the rear gunner "ring". I wasn't sure that's what it was until I saw Alberts drawings. It didn't look substantial enough, but it's certainly what's shown in the drawing. Taigh, would an airplane be equipped with both the camera equipment and the rear gun installation, or strictly one or the other?
Albert, pm sent.
Chunks
Albert, pm sent.
Chunks
??
Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:44 pm
Cool Chunks thats the doors I was talking about 
Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:46 am
Hey Chunks,
I am certainly no AT-6 guru but it is my impression that they were equipped for both from the factory but were not necessarily used at the same time. For example say a contract called for specific group of aircraft for gunnery training. They would probably have had the three guns installed and likely no camera, mount or viewfinder. I would assume that the North American made parts like the camera doors, vertical rails for the camera mount and view finder mount were there but the GFE, or Government Furnished Equipment, like the camera, its mount and A-2 viewfinder were probably not installed.
In gunnery training mode you certainly would not need the camera in fact the gunner would be tripping over the viewfinder at his feet. The camera is typically for bomb strike recording or reconnaissance. The AT-6C,D and some SNJ's had wing bomb racks for practice bombing. What is confusing is the bombing done by the AT-6 was not usually level but dive or low level bombing. The camera would normally take shots while level and would be useless in a dive bombing situation.
Back to recon mode they would coordinate between the pilot and the camera operator for the line into the target for the photo. When the objective came into view in the viewfinder then the camera operator would take the shots manually.
In a bomber configuration the camera was operated through an intervalometer that was tied into the bomb release circuit. When the bombs dropped the camera would start shooting as preset intervals. This is why you see these photos showing the bombs away and getting smaller and then the impact. This is how they could determine what specific aircraft hit or missed the target.
In the AT-6 I don't believe that the camera was tied into the bomb firing circuit but I am not certain. The pilot could not see down through the floor so he really could not do any high level bombing practice only low level or dive bombing.
I also haven't come across any information showing the cameras installed and used in the AT-6 but I am sure they must have been doing so. I get the impression that, like in other early wartime aircraft, there was a lot of versatility built into these planes so they could be easily adapted to different roles. As the war went on the specific needs were more easily determined and the extra equipment was dropped later in production to save cost and weight.
The AT-11 is another example where they had turrets and the same flex 30 gun used on the AT-6 only it pointed out of the bottom of the aircraft as a tunnel gun. The AT-11 also had a Norden bomb sight and C-1 auto pilot for the bombing mode. Even though the aircraft had the capability for both gunnery and bombardier training it was only used in one configuration at a time.
The AT-6 would not likely have had bombs on the wing, three 30 cal machine guns (cowl, right wing and flex in the rear seat) the camera install, target towing equipment, instrument hood etc all installed at the same time...but it would sure look cool! Imagine the rear gunner under the hood doing target practice with the 30 flex gun while on instruments!
I am certainly no AT-6 guru but it is my impression that they were equipped for both from the factory but were not necessarily used at the same time. For example say a contract called for specific group of aircraft for gunnery training. They would probably have had the three guns installed and likely no camera, mount or viewfinder. I would assume that the North American made parts like the camera doors, vertical rails for the camera mount and view finder mount were there but the GFE, or Government Furnished Equipment, like the camera, its mount and A-2 viewfinder were probably not installed.
In gunnery training mode you certainly would not need the camera in fact the gunner would be tripping over the viewfinder at his feet. The camera is typically for bomb strike recording or reconnaissance. The AT-6C,D and some SNJ's had wing bomb racks for practice bombing. What is confusing is the bombing done by the AT-6 was not usually level but dive or low level bombing. The camera would normally take shots while level and would be useless in a dive bombing situation.
Back to recon mode they would coordinate between the pilot and the camera operator for the line into the target for the photo. When the objective came into view in the viewfinder then the camera operator would take the shots manually.
In a bomber configuration the camera was operated through an intervalometer that was tied into the bomb release circuit. When the bombs dropped the camera would start shooting as preset intervals. This is why you see these photos showing the bombs away and getting smaller and then the impact. This is how they could determine what specific aircraft hit or missed the target.
In the AT-6 I don't believe that the camera was tied into the bomb firing circuit but I am not certain. The pilot could not see down through the floor so he really could not do any high level bombing practice only low level or dive bombing.
I also haven't come across any information showing the cameras installed and used in the AT-6 but I am sure they must have been doing so. I get the impression that, like in other early wartime aircraft, there was a lot of versatility built into these planes so they could be easily adapted to different roles. As the war went on the specific needs were more easily determined and the extra equipment was dropped later in production to save cost and weight.
The AT-11 is another example where they had turrets and the same flex 30 gun used on the AT-6 only it pointed out of the bottom of the aircraft as a tunnel gun. The AT-11 also had a Norden bomb sight and C-1 auto pilot for the bombing mode. Even though the aircraft had the capability for both gunnery and bombardier training it was only used in one configuration at a time.
The AT-6 would not likely have had bombs on the wing, three 30 cal machine guns (cowl, right wing and flex in the rear seat) the camera install, target towing equipment, instrument hood etc all installed at the same time...but it would sure look cool! Imagine the rear gunner under the hood doing target practice with the 30 flex gun while on instruments!
Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:09 pm
Thanks Taigh, once again great information.
I need the right hand mount and a ring and trolley. Any leads?
Chunks
I need the right hand mount and a ring and trolley. Any leads?
Chunks
Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:20 pm
You should be able to find the scarf ring. I have had five over the years. all NOS which makes me think there are more around. Try Lance.
The trolley is the next rarest part. Banair had a few long ago but they were the only source with any quantity.
The C-16 gun mount is the hardest to find. Sorry no place to refer you to. All I can say is best of luck. There was an earlier mount also used, the C-12, although more rare than the C-16 it would not be that hard to duplicate especially when compared to the late mount. They both used a very similar yoke.
The trolley is the next rarest part. Banair had a few long ago but they were the only source with any quantity.
The C-16 gun mount is the hardest to find. Sorry no place to refer you to. All I can say is best of luck. There was an earlier mount also used, the C-12, although more rare than the C-16 it would not be that hard to duplicate especially when compared to the late mount. They both used a very similar yoke.
Oh well....
Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:12 am
Bummer 
No camera doors on our SNJ-5, only a viewfinder hole.
No camera doors on our SNJ-5, only a viewfinder hole.