Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:24 pm
Well said as usual on the paint schemes, James.
Again, not to make too big of a deal out of it. I appreciate a fine airplane even under yucky paint. But yucky is still yucky.
The honor and commemorate stuff doesn't really ring with me, but if it did, I probably would care more about paint schemes than I do, and view inaccurate paint jobs as disrespectful. Obviously, some who are very much in the honor-and-commemorate camp don't see it this way. I don't understand that, but there is much I don't understand.
August
Again, not to make too big of a deal out of it. I appreciate a fine airplane even under yucky paint. But yucky is still yucky.
The honor and commemorate stuff doesn't really ring with me, but if it did, I probably would care more about paint schemes than I do, and view inaccurate paint jobs as disrespectful. Obviously, some who are very much in the honor-and-commemorate camp don't see it this way. I don't understand that, but there is much I don't understand.
August
Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:37 pm
So many things worthy of comment: thank you Taylor, Don, et al, for carrying the burden with your bulls-eye observations about the "tramp stamp" and the CAF bashing that goes with it. The CAF has enough problems to confront, as does the entire warbird movement and aviation in general...getting caught up in "Logo-Land" is not worth it at this point.
One thing I would like to correct (again) is this notion that CAF HQ is the home to Darth Vader (aka Steve Brown) and that "they" are only in it for the money, sapping the last schekels from the units in order to incorrectly paint the airplanes, pay too much for insurance (where did that one come from???), mandate where those nasty wings have to go to ruin the not-authentic-anyway markings on the airplanes, make everyone wear dark blue shirts (that show the dust and absorb heat), and over-pay the entire staff. Since none of the nay-sayer posters here sought me out at the Airsho to complain, demand, suggest, threaten, I can only say ALL the financial information of the CAF is available to each member (Article XII of the CAF Constitution) by request, that General Staff meetings are almost always open to the membership to sit in, and Steve Brown is ready, willing and more than able to answer any questions any member has. I personally would welcome a discussion about the direction and goals of the CAF, but not of the plague of the logos.
Better use of time is to celebrate the successes of the Doug R, John Beyl, and the others involved with the Red Tail Project, Don Price and the Texas Raiders crew and of the Maid in the Shade crew (among lots of other decent hard-working CAF members) and the folks that pulled off a superior Airsho in the face of some crappy weather.
And Taylor, the L-5 is simply magnificent. Bring it back next year.
Old Shep
One thing I would like to correct (again) is this notion that CAF HQ is the home to Darth Vader (aka Steve Brown) and that "they" are only in it for the money, sapping the last schekels from the units in order to incorrectly paint the airplanes, pay too much for insurance (where did that one come from???), mandate where those nasty wings have to go to ruin the not-authentic-anyway markings on the airplanes, make everyone wear dark blue shirts (that show the dust and absorb heat), and over-pay the entire staff. Since none of the nay-sayer posters here sought me out at the Airsho to complain, demand, suggest, threaten, I can only say ALL the financial information of the CAF is available to each member (Article XII of the CAF Constitution) by request, that General Staff meetings are almost always open to the membership to sit in, and Steve Brown is ready, willing and more than able to answer any questions any member has. I personally would welcome a discussion about the direction and goals of the CAF, but not of the plague of the logos.
Better use of time is to celebrate the successes of the Doug R, John Beyl, and the others involved with the Red Tail Project, Don Price and the Texas Raiders crew and of the Maid in the Shade crew (among lots of other decent hard-working CAF members) and the folks that pulled off a superior Airsho in the face of some crappy weather.
And Taylor, the L-5 is simply magnificent. Bring it back next year.
Old Shep
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:06 pm
JDK wrote:
Is that airframe really a "Martlet" or a "Wildcat" paint like one. We could just paint it like a "real Wildcat" and solve the whole problem.
Just kidding, of course.
As I've said before there's a lot of fuss made about honouring veterans. If that's the best effort to honour an allied service, it shows both ignorance and disrespect to that organisation - I (maybe I'm odd) feel it's like wearing a uniform improperly dressed, or medal ribbons not awarded, or hoisting the allied flag upside down.
Is that airframe really a "Martlet" or a "Wildcat" paint like one. We could just paint it like a "real Wildcat" and solve the whole problem.
Just kidding, of course.
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:18 pm
Don't wildcats have fur?EDowning wrote:Is that airframe really a "Martlet" or a "Wildcat" paint like one. We could just paint it like a "real Wildcat" and solve the whole problem.
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:34 pm
JDK Wrote: "Don't Wildcats have fur?"
Apparently, Martlets don't have legs......."A martlet is a heraldic charge depicting a stylized bird with short tufts of feathers in the place of legs."
Seroiusly, was the CAF "Martlet" of British lineage?
Apparently, Martlets don't have legs......."A martlet is a heraldic charge depicting a stylized bird with short tufts of feathers in the place of legs."
Seroiusly, was the CAF "Martlet" of British lineage?
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:46 pm
EDowning wrote:Seroiusly, was the CAF "Martlet" of British lineage?
One of the Royal Navy's unsurpassable naming efforts. The Grumman Avenger was re-named the Grumman Tarpon, the Wildcat the Martlet, and there's a lot more of that calibre. The nadir was probably reached with the Blackburn Blackburn.
I think (and there were many changes) that bomber and TSR (torpedo spotter reconnaissance) types were to be named after fish - Swordfish, Barracuda, Tarpon and fighters / dive bombers after birds, Fairey's Flycatcher being a personal fave.
Naming your fighter after a mythic bird was probably a bad move - the Blackburn Roc.
Are we off topic yet?
Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm
Read, understand then answer the question, JDK. Rats.
I dunno.
Apparently there were different models of Wildcats and Martlets, but the all look stumpy little fighters to me.
EDowning wrote:Seroiusly, was the CAF "Martlet" of British lineage?
I dunno.
Apparently there were different models of Wildcats and Martlets, but the all look stumpy little fighters to me.
Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:09 pm
It gets even better.................
Martlet
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Note that the British version of the F4F Wildcat was initially called the Martlet.
A martlet is a heraldic charge depicting a stylized bird with short tufts of feathers in the place of legs. Swifts, formerly also called martlets, have such small legs that they were believed to have none at all.
The inability of the martlet to land is often seen to symbolize the constant quest for knowledge and learning, as in the arms of University College, Oxford; Worcester College, Oxford; Pembroke College, Cambridge; McGill University (where the women's athletic teams are named the Martlets); the University of Houston and its Law Center; Westminster School, Simsbury, Connecticut (where the store is called the Martlet's Nest); and the University of Victoria (where the student newspaper is also called The Martlet).
It has been suggested that this same restlessness is the reason for the use of the martlet in English heraldry as the cadency mark of the fourth son: the first son inherited the estate, the second and third traditionally went into the Church and the Army, and the fourth had no well-defined place. As the fourth son received no part of the family wealth and had to earn his own, the martlet was also a symbol of hard work, perseverance, and a nomadic household.
Coat of arms of a family named Bird, featuring four red martlets.
Arms of Richard II of EnglandCenturies after his death, Edward the Confessor was assigned a coat of arms containing five golden martlets; Richard II of England combined this coat with the Plantagenet arms, and it later became the basis of the arms of Westminster Abbey and Westminster School.
The arms of the Valence earls of Pembroke were orled (bordered) with martlets, and subsequently these are also found in the arms of Pembroke College, Cambridge.
The French word for swallow is hirondelle, and therefore martlets have appeared in arms canting on the name Arundel.
Martlet
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Note that the British version of the F4F Wildcat was initially called the Martlet.
A martlet is a heraldic charge depicting a stylized bird with short tufts of feathers in the place of legs. Swifts, formerly also called martlets, have such small legs that they were believed to have none at all.
The inability of the martlet to land is often seen to symbolize the constant quest for knowledge and learning, as in the arms of University College, Oxford; Worcester College, Oxford; Pembroke College, Cambridge; McGill University (where the women's athletic teams are named the Martlets); the University of Houston and its Law Center; Westminster School, Simsbury, Connecticut (where the store is called the Martlet's Nest); and the University of Victoria (where the student newspaper is also called The Martlet).
It has been suggested that this same restlessness is the reason for the use of the martlet in English heraldry as the cadency mark of the fourth son: the first son inherited the estate, the second and third traditionally went into the Church and the Army, and the fourth had no well-defined place. As the fourth son received no part of the family wealth and had to earn his own, the martlet was also a symbol of hard work, perseverance, and a nomadic household.
Coat of arms of a family named Bird, featuring four red martlets.
Arms of Richard II of EnglandCenturies after his death, Edward the Confessor was assigned a coat of arms containing five golden martlets; Richard II of England combined this coat with the Plantagenet arms, and it later became the basis of the arms of Westminster Abbey and Westminster School.
The arms of the Valence earls of Pembroke were orled (bordered) with martlets, and subsequently these are also found in the arms of Pembroke College, Cambridge.
The French word for swallow is hirondelle, and therefore martlets have appeared in arms canting on the name Arundel.
Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:24 pm
And, while Eric is off discovering the lunatic pleasures of heraldry, let's go back to aircraft - the earliest surviving member of Grumman's Wildcat family is the Martlet AL246 in the Fleet Air Arm Museum, Yeovilton. This is an ex French order machine, delivered to the Royal Navy. It's currently undergoing a conservation and 'archaeological exploration' to uncover its history as was done with the Corsair.
The CAF's 'Martlet' N5833 is an FM-2, Bu 86819. AFAIK, it was built for US service and has no connection with the RN. The FM-2 was produced by General Motors / Eastern Aircraft for the USN and RN, so it, again AFAIK, would be the right type for an RN Martlet.
The CAF's 'Martlet' N5833 is an FM-2, Bu 86819. AFAIK, it was built for US service and has no connection with the RN. The FM-2 was produced by General Motors / Eastern Aircraft for the USN and RN, so it, again AFAIK, would be the right type for an RN Martlet.
Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:13 am
JDK Wrote:
I discovered them long, long ago. I have been on and off of WIX for years (lunatic) and owned warbirds for 10 years (pleasure).
Thanks for the background info on the CAF Martlet, guess they just decided to paint it "like" a RN airframe.
Since it seems that the only criteria is that at least one of the type served or flew in a foreign service, maybe I should paint my Yale in a quasi-accurate German "Flying Circus" scheme. You know the polished one with the 20 coats of clear and the Lime Green and Purple Iron Cross.
And, while Eric is off discovering the lunatic pleasures
I discovered them long, long ago. I have been on and off of WIX for years (lunatic) and owned warbirds for 10 years (pleasure).
Thanks for the background info on the CAF Martlet, guess they just decided to paint it "like" a RN airframe.
Since it seems that the only criteria is that at least one of the type served or flew in a foreign service, maybe I should paint my Yale in a quasi-accurate German "Flying Circus" scheme. You know the polished one with the 20 coats of clear and the Lime Green and Purple Iron Cross.
Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:25 am
I can't believe this post has generated so much of a response. I did it as a joke! That's why there is pictures of girls in the thread. I was walking around in the drizzle and fog on Sunday after the show canceled and thought it would be funny. I mentioned to a friend that I was going to do this just to see what happend but both of us are surprised at what has developed.
I'm not exactly Joe Shmoe airshow attendee, the audience that you say the branding is meant for. For the most part I know what warbirds are owned by who. I took the time to walk around and find these for the purposes of this thread. It wasn't hard, they are difficult to miss. I guess that's actual reason behind the entire program.
Straight out of wikipedia there! I don't think it is actually derogatory about the tattoo. It's about the girl that the tattoo is on! I think the comparison is pretty accurate and funny as heck. I can't remember who thought it up first but I sure wish it was me. I think it's now become a universally recognized name for that logo. The CAF should seriously consider a trademark!
I don't buy the idea that this is how the average person will know a particular airplane is part of the CAF. Even as a little kid I knew to look under the stabilizer and see the name "Confederate (Commemmorative) Air Force".
The airplane was donated by Bob in September of 1986. It was still bare metal then. Shorly after that it was painted in Navy colors. The paintjob that is on it now was done way after that. Yes it was because Bob wanted it done that way, he had donated lots of money and the airplane, but the scheme is still nasty. My friend Carter Teeters (one of the pilots) is very defensive about the paint and that is fine. But I know the plane flew fine in the old blue paint.
You are way too much like mustangdriver and his never ending defense of the Air Force Museum. Don't take things people say about the CAF so personally. As you said, a lot of the people on this board are armchair members of the CAF and possibly other organizations. But I have a feeling that most of the people here have no connection to the operation and maintenance of warbirds whatsoever, except that they like them and are fans of them. Nothing in the world wrong with that, the majority of us started that way. In other words, consider the source of the complaints. A lot of the people in this thread have earned the right to complain. Some are just doing it to get their post count up.
I noticed that the F8F didn't have a tramp stamp on it. Maybe you didn't notice Dan but it seems to me that the majority of people that have posted about this (not including the occasional individual of questionable judgement) have more than paid their dues with warbirds. Short of the paintjobs on the P-40 and Wildcat, I think the tramp stamps are the most attrocious things I've ever seen done to a CAF airplane, appearance wise. I understand the reasoning behind the "branding" and I sure wish I knew a way to get exposure, money, etc..without them. But I don't.
I'm no accountant but I'm betting that in the long run, the branding program, the Confederate/Commemmorative name change and USAF style occasional changing of the uniforms will be a pig in a poke. If the CAF wants to improve their financial standing, then they should move to the DFW area. I think in the long run that will be the only way they will survive.
Nothing I've posted is meant to be a knock at the CAF. I'm just a person that likes to work on and mess with old airplanes and have been lucky to do so since I was a kid. I still make the trek to Midland, when the USAF allows, so I can work on FiFi. I still make the trek to Washington State to work on other warbirds and work on warbirds closer to home when I have the chance. When I get the opportunity to buy another airplane, if it is a warbird, I'm going to paint it in some semi-accurate military scheme with my name under the canopy rails and my initials on the vertical fin. If I decide to join up again, it will even say Colonel, CAF. I'm not against inaccurate paint jobs and I like the old red, white and blue schemes of long ago. With airplane paint and Women, I'm against ugly. But I've been known to associate with both on occasion!
In the meantime: If somebody will get me a sizable tramp stamp or two, I will make sure they are on my C-17 when we fly at Ft Worth and Houston in a few weeks. I'll even get good pictures of them for the Dispatch magazine.
I think the CAF should be thankful for all the controversy about the tramp stamps. That is probably more of an attention getter than the the actual decals!
me109me109 wrote:Seems the branding is working, you noticed all of the CAF aircraft. Be thankful they are still around because of what that logo represents.
I'm not exactly Joe Shmoe airshow attendee, the audience that you say the branding is meant for. For the most part I know what warbirds are owned by who. I took the time to walk around and find these for the purposes of this thread. It wasn't hard, they are difficult to miss. I guess that's actual reason behind the entire program.
me109me109 wrote:Mudge,
By the way "Tramp Stamp" is a derogatory name for a lower back tattoo on girls. I see a lot of them in college, hopefully the lower half
The term is meant to insult the logo.
Straight out of wikipedia there! I don't think it is actually derogatory about the tattoo. It's about the girl that the tattoo is on! I think the comparison is pretty accurate and funny as heck. I can't remember who thought it up first but I sure wish it was me. I think it's now become a universally recognized name for that logo. The CAF should seriously consider a trademark!
I don't buy the idea that this is how the average person will know a particular airplane is part of the CAF. Even as a little kid I knew to look under the stabilizer and see the name "Confederate (Commemmorative) Air Force".
me109me109 wrote: The CAF did not paint the FM-2 like it is; Bob Reiss chose that before he donated it to the organization. We can sit here and kick and scream saying it's too shiny, too blue, looks like crayolas etc. but let us not forget that it would not be flying today if great individuals like the late Robert Reiss had not put forth their time and resources to ensure its continued existence. Be thankful.
To all- I am getting kind of sick of the negativity towards the CAF on this board. For 50+ years the CAF has made dreams possible and will continue to do so. Don't forget that. There are several individuals here on WIX that do so much good for the Warbird movement, however I feel that there are a lot of 'armchair' members who do nothing but complain about minute details filled with resentment of those who actively participate. To those of you who are involved in any capacity with warbirds: pilot, mechanic, PX, wiping the hangar floor, docents, etc. THANK YOU. To those of you who complain for complaining sake, hold grudges, only point out flaws, etc. Get involved, or get a life.
Figure I'll hear some feedback from this one, but you all need to hear it.
The airplane was donated by Bob in September of 1986. It was still bare metal then. Shorly after that it was painted in Navy colors. The paintjob that is on it now was done way after that. Yes it was because Bob wanted it done that way, he had donated lots of money and the airplane, but the scheme is still nasty. My friend Carter Teeters (one of the pilots) is very defensive about the paint and that is fine. But I know the plane flew fine in the old blue paint.
You are way too much like mustangdriver and his never ending defense of the Air Force Museum. Don't take things people say about the CAF so personally. As you said, a lot of the people on this board are armchair members of the CAF and possibly other organizations. But I have a feeling that most of the people here have no connection to the operation and maintenance of warbirds whatsoever, except that they like them and are fans of them. Nothing in the world wrong with that, the majority of us started that way. In other words, consider the source of the complaints. A lot of the people in this thread have earned the right to complain. Some are just doing it to get their post count up.
Dan Newcomb wrote:Trust me, logos are not an issue in our wing’s maintenance hangar! We are too few trying to keep a Bearcat, Hellcat, Zero, Spitfire, C-46, two SNJ’s, a PT-19 and a PBJ project going.
I just had a brain fart! Why don’t some of you do something really meaningful? It is easy to criticize. The hard thing is to come up with solutions. If you don’t want to see logos then come up with a better way to promote the CAF. Give us ideas as to fundraising. Help us find ways to increase membership. It takes a dedicated workforce and a pile of money to keep these aircraft in the air. I must admit it hurts a little when after all the hard work somebody dimes you for a logo.
Dan
I noticed that the F8F didn't have a tramp stamp on it. Maybe you didn't notice Dan but it seems to me that the majority of people that have posted about this (not including the occasional individual of questionable judgement) have more than paid their dues with warbirds. Short of the paintjobs on the P-40 and Wildcat, I think the tramp stamps are the most attrocious things I've ever seen done to a CAF airplane, appearance wise. I understand the reasoning behind the "branding" and I sure wish I knew a way to get exposure, money, etc..without them. But I don't.
I'm no accountant but I'm betting that in the long run, the branding program, the Confederate/Commemmorative name change and USAF style occasional changing of the uniforms will be a pig in a poke. If the CAF wants to improve their financial standing, then they should move to the DFW area. I think in the long run that will be the only way they will survive.
Nothing I've posted is meant to be a knock at the CAF. I'm just a person that likes to work on and mess with old airplanes and have been lucky to do so since I was a kid. I still make the trek to Midland, when the USAF allows, so I can work on FiFi. I still make the trek to Washington State to work on other warbirds and work on warbirds closer to home when I have the chance. When I get the opportunity to buy another airplane, if it is a warbird, I'm going to paint it in some semi-accurate military scheme with my name under the canopy rails and my initials on the vertical fin. If I decide to join up again, it will even say Colonel, CAF. I'm not against inaccurate paint jobs and I like the old red, white and blue schemes of long ago. With airplane paint and Women, I'm against ugly. But I've been known to associate with both on occasion!
In the meantime: If somebody will get me a sizable tramp stamp or two, I will make sure they are on my C-17 when we fly at Ft Worth and Houston in a few weeks. I'll even get good pictures of them for the Dispatch magazine.
I think the CAF should be thankful for all the controversy about the tramp stamps. That is probably more of an attention getter than the the actual decals!
Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:47 am
Heck I will get photos for you while you fly by just put them where I can seem them LOL. Seriously if I had the extra cash I would join the CAF, I dont mind the decal I just like seeing the planes actually fly. There is several wings I would like to join just to support my favorite aircraft, I was once a cadet in the GCW and did get to work on Raiders so I will have to rejoin the GCW, but I would like to support the SB2C and P-39 as well LOL. So once I get some extra cash I will rejoin and its great to see Raiders in the air again!
Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:00 am
I think it's funny that in a time when restorations both static and flying are striving for the most accurate measures to be taken, the caf is doing the logos. What would be said if the NMUSAF said that every airplane on loan was to have a similar style logo by the cockpit. The same folks saying this is no big deal would be going crazy and doing things like demanding the status as a national museum be revoked. I think they are silly and detract from the look of the plane. I am thankful for the caf that continues to fly warbirds. As I always say there needs to be a balance of static and flying aircraft and the caf fleet makes up a great deal of that flying part. I still support the caf. Just not a fan of some recent moves
Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:10 am
You ask what would happen if the NMUSAF placed decals on their loans near the cockpit. Therein lies the problem. The CAF tramp stamps are placed willy nilly anywhere on the airplane. A "look of uniformity" ( S Brown phrase of the Month) by placing them all at the same place would make too much sense.
Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:10 am
Good post Brad, I agree...
If you saw Commemorative, you'd be underage in your service.
That's true, but my experience at Oshkosh gave me a different opinion, and there were several CAF aircraft I'd not realised (or looked for the undertail text) were CAF - so, I think it works. Maybe now I'll get who owns what right in print, too.
Ooo, scary. Brad, ol chap, go for the Lone Star flag look by all means, but if you want a warbird in it's wolf's clothing, just raise the hand - I'm sure you'd get a lot of free knowledgeable help.
(Incidentally, like Brad, I think most of the old Confed schemes looked neat, and I do actually like the Lone Star Fury scheme. Nothing wrong with good civvies, worn with pride.)
Now there's a branding op. I'm sure Brad's not trying to get the CAF to collect on any of his recent C-17 low flying complaints either.
Cheers,
Brad wrote:I don't buy the idea that this is how the average person will know a particular airplane is part of the CAF. Even as a little kid I knew to look under the stabilizer and see the name "Confederate (Commemmorative) Air Force".
If you saw Commemorative, you'd be underage in your service.
That's true, but my experience at Oshkosh gave me a different opinion, and there were several CAF aircraft I'd not realised (or looked for the undertail text) were CAF - so, I think it works. Maybe now I'll get who owns what right in print, too.
When I get the opportunity to buy another airplane, if it is a warbird, I'm going to paint it in some semi-accurate military scheme with my name under the canopy rails and my initials on the vertical fin. If I decide to join up again, it will even say Colonel, CAF. I'm not against inaccurate paint jobs and I like the old red, white and blue schemes of long ago. With airplane paint and Women, I'm against ugly. But I've been known to associate with both on occasion!
Ooo, scary. Brad, ol chap, go for the Lone Star flag look by all means, but if you want a warbird in it's wolf's clothing, just raise the hand - I'm sure you'd get a lot of free knowledgeable help.
(Incidentally, like Brad, I think most of the old Confed schemes looked neat, and I do actually like the Lone Star Fury scheme. Nothing wrong with good civvies, worn with pride.)
In the meantime: If somebody will get me a sizable tramp stamp or two, I will make sure they are on my C-17 when we fly at Ft Worth and Houston in a few weeks. I'll even get good pictures of them for the Dispatch magazine.
Now there's a branding op. I'm sure Brad's not trying to get the CAF to collect on any of his recent C-17 low flying complaints either.
Cheers,