This is the place where the majority of the warbird (aircraft that have survived military service) discussions will take place. Specialized forums may be added in the new future
Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:33 pm
This topic may not be right for posting on the hanger but I felt compelled to do so.
How many "WIXERS" work in an aviation job, Part 91, Part 135 etc.
I work for a small aviation maintenence shop located in the midwest.
We have a very tight budget and we get paid less than other mechs on the airport.
The corporate outfits pay $30.00 plus an hour to their mechs.
Now to put this in a "nut shell", we get calls everyday, from people with "squawks".
"somethings not right with my airplane", what's wrong...
We can't fix it unless we see it, right.
Too many aircraft owners want something for free, and it's getting old.
Try calling a Laywer, plumber, electrician etc.
They all will tell you, it'll be a one hour min charge, why should or should'nt we be the
same...
Now comes the biggest hit, who pays for our maintenence manuals.
The FAA says we have to have "Current" revisions etc.
Who pays for that, or do we just add it to somebodys bill.
Maybe some letter writing to the FAA, AMT magazine, AOPA etc. might do it.
Any comments would help.
Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:54 pm
The problem with that is that there will always be the new mechanics desperate enough to get a reputation that they will do so to be able to work in the field. Also, that extra mile may be what keeps your customers coming to you.
Generally, though, I agree...
Ryan
Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:12 am
Its a double edged sword, I work corporate jets primarily and run a part 135 equivalent shop in Canada. We charge the same for the corporate as we do for small piston, and most pay without complaining. Warbirds we work on are the same as well. (Which is $88/hr currently!)
However, i do favors for friends still that either keeps me in flying time, or a return favor. This is a good thing to do.
Once again.... However... There are a some older shops that are charging as little as $45 /hr which is cut throat, and screws the rest of the industry (keeps wages down, and profits down and owners yelling at shops like ours) and keeps the private airplane owner happy, but complaining when he absolutely has to stop at a higher paying shop.
The cheap shops dont do anything for the industry as it keeps the owners thinking they should still pay cheap, but take your Mercedes or your Lincoln, or your Ford for that matter to a dealer for work and you pay more than an aircraft.
I asked an owner once who complained about his rates about the cost of maintaining his high end car and he said thats different, and then I suggested he pull over to the first cloud with his plane to get fixed when he has a problem next time! You get what you pay for!
If i have a one of plane that an owner wants maintained at our shop, he pays for the manuals. You dont make enough on most planes to cover those costs effectively.
I dont think any letter writing unfortunately will do much good. Shops simply have to keep there rates high enough to be with the competition, yet low enough to keep a customer happy. preferred rates for some are always an option.
For what its worth....
Sat Dec 05, 2009 1:16 am
We get that a lot at a large FBO. The transient corporate pilots are the worst. They stop into the shop with a mechanical problem, and expect us to fix it for free, like some type of professional courtesy.
A 15 minute verbal discussion is free. But after that, they fill out and sign a squawk sheet and pay by the hour.
Some, when asked to pay for our services, taxi over to a competitor. Others are clever enough to search out a mechanic in a far hangar, and try to badger him, without getting the shop manager and money involved.
The EAA guys are bad too. Most believe I should be flattered when invited to help build their aircraft, for free. I politely explain that I have been rebuilding aircraft for decades, am routinely involved in much more challenging projects than theirs, and have $100,000 in aircraft tools & equipment. I then tell them I am willing to work for them for free, if they are willing to return the favor. That is when the lawyer/doctor/accountant homebuilder turns and walks away.

Warbirds are different for me. They represent a piece of American history, and I am proud to help them out, no charge.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:18 am
It look like that it is trend to be under pressure to work for free. You are not the first one to say that and it is not only in your sphere of job. I am not airplane craftsman but know how important is this job.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:49 am
I think this discussion really should be in the Off-Topic area. But, that doesn't prevent me from giving my opinion.
I worked at an FBO for 14 years, am now in corporate. With some on the side jobs.
As a general rule I agree with not working for free. The general thinking is you are exercising
your professional license in a specialized field, with a BIG responsibility. IT's really that grease monkey image we are working against.
However, you get more bees with honey than vinegar. If someone needs a little something,
such as air in tires, blow out a dripping sump drain. Thats free. Stranded aviators with blown tires,etc. I am very lenient with towards billing $$. I have a lawyer friend that I would work for free but, he insists on paying me even for the smallest maintenance item. And he lets me fly his Cub.

Also, keep in mind these aircraft owners are mandated to have the work done by someone else. So, I think it best to keep the Golden Rule in mind.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:40 am
Interesting topic, and to keep it here, refs to the warbird aspect, already touched on, can be emphasised.
In a competitive free market, prices float set by competition - so there will be advantage taken where possible for giving and receiving 'free stuff'. Qualified closed shop trades can manage the undercutting better - the lawyer example being bandied here comes to mind.
One of the things I am curious about - particularly as an ex- Warbirds Worldwide writer, a journal keen to emphasise the Industry aspect of the warbird business - is how much voluntary work is there in warbird restoration, maintenance and operation? A hellava lot, and I wonder what a global hours cost est would be if that was paid time - assuming it could / would get paid. Conversely there's a few who earn their entire livelihood from working with warbirds - by and large while it's a dream job, it's a dream job with tricky / low / uncompetitive pay.
Some people make a buck from warbirds - not their living, but part. I guess as a writer, I'm of of those, but I'm certainly not maximising my earning potential (scores higher on the fun than what I used to do though) I do a lot of 'work' for free and barter 'trade' and no-one has to qualify to do the writing or editing.
Businesses will always be fishing with free stuff and be asked to provide free stuff by customers shopping around - and as Mgawa says, this seems to be a growing factor. The issue here seems to be whether you are managing it, or it's managing you. Do you have a 'free air' sign outside the shop, or are transient pilots putting your guy on the spot and getting freebees when he's not earning - a double loss?
It's not so much giving your skills for free, but ensuring there's other-than-cash benefits for you and your business.
Just a few thoughts,
Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:54 am
This is the exact same discussion I see on the pro pilot forums...and the photography forums....etc.
Everyone who has a trade is concerned about losing their ability to make money by other hobbyists who will do it for free.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:02 am
Randy Haskin wrote:This is the exact same discussion I see on the pro pilot forums...and the photography forums....etc.
Everyone who has a trade is concerned about losing their ability to make money by other hobbyists who will do it for free.
And to some degree it is actually hurting pretty badly! There's just no way to really stop it though, in a free market, which is ok with me.
Ryan
Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:05 am
Randy Haskin wrote:Everyone who has a trade is concerned about losing their ability to make money by other hobbyists who will do it for free.
Part of the loooong move from the trade Guilds of the medieval era and
their closed-shop.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:25 am
No matter what field of turning wrenches you are in, there will always be those people that want something for nothing. I work for a local thermoking dealer. All day long the phone is ringing with people looking for us to fix their unit over the phone. Drivers pull in with their trailers and want us to fix it right now, and think its ok for us just to go put a battery in for nothing. If a guy just needs a jump start, or he ran it out of fuel and needs a quick priming, that no problem. But anything more then 5 mins sorry buddy, but its time to get in line. If the company i work for doesnt make money i dont have a job. Thats how i look at it. Heck i have had after hours calls at 2 in morning asking me how to prime the fuel system and they are not even in my area (i love to get woke up and not get paid for it).
I've worked in the watercraft/atv, marine, automotive, and now trailer refridgetion. This problem is the same all over, no matter what you turn wrenchs on.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:51 am
You asked for an opinion , so I will be blunt. I am sorry that you are so bitter, but who is the cause of your only making $30 hour, lot's of people making a lot less, by the way? It would seem to me that this is the agreement between you and your boss, or the market conditions. In any event it is not the fault of the customer, in any case. And being angry or rude toward the customer is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
As for freebies, my lawyer went to a school a long time to get his position and he charges a lot. But if I were to call for 5 minutes and ask if he can win a case, it would probably be free. If it is a half hour or he has to research it then I'd expect to be charged. And let's say the shop does not have an opening for immediate service on my plane, or I don't want to leave it yet. I might ask a BRIEF question about the condition or if it is safe to fly, and not expect to get charged then.
There are waiters and waitress who are underpaid by their boss, should the customer be expected to leave a big tip for poor service to make up for this?
There are people who just don't have or don't use manners. It seems to me that this is more the case when in a big city or maybe in areas where the economy is really bad and people are really desperate.
You cannot unfortunatly change all rude people, but it is your choice not to act like them.
As for manuals, that is the cost of you having a shop,just like having floor jacks or a compressor of a doctor having an xray machine or Midas having a lift. It is part of the overhead and should come out of the shop rate.
It's very hard to do a good job at something you despise. I hope you can see the good points in your job, work out the bugs or get something you like. Spreading your disgust to the customers is not the way to do business and won't help anyone in the long run
I have seen exactly the same problem in ski shops, both as a customer, and through my Son who works there. By the way$30 an hour is 3 times what he makes, not counting a ski pass. Most employees are there to ski, not cause they love the work. They often resent the visitor that can afford to bring their family on vacation or they ridicule someone who is not familiar with ski equiptment. Some customers are just plain rude and demamnding, there are for instances places like S. America where the wealthy have a different attitude toward the servant class. My Son tries to treat everyone as best he can, and he feels better about himself, and every once in awhile someone leaves him a big tip also.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:17 pm
Bill,
You said exactly what I was thinking. Great points.
Like Bill I will go ahead and be as honest about my opinion as I can. You may not like my answer but remember: You asked for it

.
Early in my career in the world of IT I can't tell you how many friends, relatives, and strangers wanted to ask me about their computer issues or look at their PC, or network for free. Early on, like many new to a career, I was happy to help for free to get the experience, but like anything else you get to a point where you need to ask yourself what value you give to your services. Be it working for someone else or working for yourself you need to understand the true value of your services and what approach you have to your customer relations. Some chose to take a hard line and ask that every minute be accounted for, while others may put much more work into a project than they actually get paid for. In the end it is a free market system. You choose which skills to offer by getting certain training, experience or education, and customers have a choice of who to use for certain services.
A great example of one way of doing things happened to me not too long ago. I got a flat tire on my truck so I put on the spare and headed to a tire shop. He took my flat and plugged the hole and took off my spare. He came and asked how long it was since I had a rotation and I told him it had been a long while so he went away and 15 minutes later he came back and told me he plugged my flat and thought the tires needed rotated so he went ahead and did that. I asked him how much and he said for me just to come back the next time I needed tires and he'd call it even. A week later I noticed my iwfes car needed some new tires so we went back and got them there and I plan on going back the next time I need tires.
The next time someone comes an asks you a question that eats up 15 minutes of your time or maybe you walk over to his T hanger to take a quick look at something you may want to remember that maybe the next time you are worried about where your next customer will come from he will walk in your hanger and ask for you to do an annual on his King Air. It's not going to happen every time but in a career that admittedly by many is hard to get steady work I would think that every opportunity to gain another customer would be welome.
In my careeer I run an Network Infrastructure group for a large company. In my department alone we spend about $4,000,000 every year in capital to sustain the services that we provide to our customers. How do we pay for it? Well, we allocate it out in the costs of our services. On a smaller scale it is the same for you. Maybe you need $2500 in education a year and you spent $10,000 on tools or materials that you expect to last you on average 5 years, and $1000 on material that will need to be replaced annualy such as manuals. So you can figure it out based on a full work load of 2080.
$2,500 annual recurring edcuation
$1,000 annual expenses
$2,000 tool expenses annualized over 5 years ($10,000/5)
$5,500 total annual expenses
2080 hours worked peryear
$2.64 your costs of expenses per hour worked
Many industries have to spend a lot of money on marketing just to get customers to walk in the door let alone purchase a product or service. In your case you have to spend a lot of money paying for tools and education. It is the cost of doing business. How many doctors, lawyers, etc get asked to give free advice by freinds, family, and strangers. I can assure you it is many. I don't think you have a unique situation here.
Ryan
Last edited by
rwdfresno on Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:18 pm
I've been working on airplanes since 1978 (1977 if you want to count my first year in A&P school) and seen and heard everything discussed here. Many GA owners want to pay "hobby" prices to support their hobby; their airplane. I work on GA aircraft at a government facility so I don't have to worry to much about dealing with the public, but when I did work at an FBO I would point at a shop rate sign and at the owner's office and politely tell folks to take their concerns "down the hall."
Wrenchturner - as far as your manuals - yes you have to keep up the subscription, especially if you're working at a public airport where your exposure is at its greatest. You need to determine your yearly cost for manuals and publications and factor that into your shop rate.
As a counterpart once told me about determining what to charge customers "figure out your cost, double it and add 30%."
Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:42 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:I have seen exactly the same problem in ski shops, both as a customer, and through my Son who works there. By the way$30 an hour is 3 times what he makes, not counting a ski pass. Most employees are there to ski, not cause they love the work. They often resent the visitor that can afford to bring their family on vacation or they ridicule someone who is not familiar with ski equiptment. Some customers are just plain rude and demamnding, there are for instances places like S. America where the wealthy have a different attitude toward the servant class. My Son tries to treat everyone as best he can, and he feels better about himself, and every once in awhile someone leaves him a big tip also.
I always treat people how I expect to be treated. However, if someone then treats me like some kind of thick headed idiot and/or are rude they will get *attitude* in return.
I always remember the advice I was given many years ago:
"If you can't say something nice, say something vague"....
You may want to pass that along to your kids as it's quite satisfying when it takes someone half a day or more to actually realise what you said wasn't what you were actually implying... by which time the customer will have left the place of business...
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