Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.

[JetStarMech]

Sputter, sputter, sneeze sneeze, cough cough, silence, OOPS...

[JetStarMech]

Sputter, sputter, sneeze sneeze, cough cough, silence, OOPS...

[Sabremech]

SkymasterO2,
I'd like to say I can do the same thing to a fixed wing Cessna or Piper, but I find it nearly impossible to do in one day. The logbook research can easily take one day by itself. Could you honestly say you can do a 100hr/annual in one day that you have never seen before, including the logbook research? Vey doubtful. No dilly dallying, but you get what you pay for!
David

[JDK]

The issue there is poor management and training of volunteers. One of the things that makes *my* blood boil to use your earlier phrase is how many organisations treat volunteers as second class citizens and then blame them for shortfalls. That's an organisational, not volunteer problem. It is, I appreciate easy to say, but rather than fighting the crocs, why not drain the swamp?

Unfortunately, we don't have any control over that, we usually find out after the fact when something needs to be undone, then redone. That dawning moment when you realise "someone has been here before me".

Some museum volunteer set ups are first rate, others not quite so. TFC's is top notch & from what I've seen so is PoF's... & I'm familiar with another one that's downright scary. Can't/won't speak for others..

The difference in the volunteer set ups isn't the volunteers or the quality of their work, it's the management of it, as I said - specifically supervision, training and standards of work, all of which are 'fails' in the example you cite, and should be addressed, or, as you've said, it's a double waste of time.

I agree it's frustrating, and there's a lot of poor management and poor volunteering, but that's a (management) choice (or abdication of responsibility) not the way things 'need to be'.

I appreciate we don't have the details of your workplace or your say in correcting such issues (and perhaps we don't want to go into that here) but the principle I stated is sound.

Regards

[m charters]

Have to agree with sabremech that an annual in a day is pretty quick, Is this the inspection after the plane is all opened up?
And how many guys are doing it? This is what we are talking about. Had a guy tell me a mechanic did his annual one year in 11 hours.
If this is what guys expect of us and want it done at the cheapest cost, how is a shop to survive.
Even warbirds whether they fly 5 hours or 50 hours annually need to scrutinized to the same standard.
Would be an interesting off topic to see what people take for time for different aircraft.
Volunteers will always have a place with organizations like museums, and people volunteering for not for profit organizations, and my personal favorite, helping out for flying. I work Monday to Friday and volunteer on Saturdays.
Volunteering got me into this business, likely many of you as well.

[Kyleb]

Have to agree with sabremech that an annual in a day is pretty quick, Is this the inspection after the plane is all opened up?
And how many guys are doing it? This is what we are talking about. Had a guy tell me a mechanic did his annual one year in 11 hours.
If this is what guys expect of us and want it done at the cheapest cost, how is a shop to survive.
Even warbirds whether they fly 5 hours or 50 hours annually need to scrutinized to the same standard.
Would be an interesting off topic to see what people take for time for different aircraft.
Volunteers will always have a place with organizations like museums, and people volunteering for not for profit organizations, and my personal favorite, helping out for flying. I work Monday to Friday and volunteer on Saturdays.
Volunteering got me into this business, likely many of you as well.

We're not necessarily talking B-36's here. Shouldn't an experienced mechanic be able to complete an annual on a C-150, Champ, J-3, or even C-172 in a day, maybe slightly more?

[m charters]

Point taken, J3 i agree, Cessna on amphibs, no.

[flyboyj]

We're not necessarily talking B-36's here. Shouldn't an experienced mechanic be able to complete an annual on a C-150, Champ, J-3, or even C-172 in a day, maybe slightly more?

I've got to agree with that - When I ran a small FBO I knocked off 100 hour and annuals in less than a day, at the same time I had help, usually 2, sometimes 3 of us working on the aircraft.

In another time in my career I worked at a small flight school in the evening. 2 of us would knock off 100 hour and annuals in 4 hours providing there was nothing major to fix, and we would hit everything on the checklist. Mind you these were "our" aircraft so we knew the records and the status of ADs and SBs.

Some food for thought - in this discussion are we considering "just the inspection" which would involve a visual inspection of the aircraft, a compression test, landing gear retraction test (as applicable), records search and any other required inspections dictated by the manufacturer's maintenance manuals, or are we talking the inspection AND the required maintenance -Opening up the aircraft, removing seats, carpeting, access panels, greasing wheel bearings, flight controls, checking rigging and adjusting as required, cleaning the aircraft and changing/ replenishing fluids (I know there's more)?? I've worked with A&Ps and capable aircraft owners who accomplished "all the grunt work" and all I was left with the the physical inspection of the aircraft. (Remember, the aircraft owner could do a lot of maintenance under preventative maintenance (FAR 43 Appendix A). Walking in as the "IA" I could tell you that for the most part my time is far less than one day.

NOW - performing the "Inspection" and the required maintenance? As a solo A&P/IA, a full day for sure including researching ADs, and that's providing that no major discrepancies were found.

I think we need to speak in terms of the "Inspection" and the "required maintenance" that is usually part of the annual inspection.

My 2 cents -- invest wisely.

[RyanShort1]

Having worked for a while at an FBO with the maintenance guys, and for a while with a guy in his engine shop - I think it would be fair to point out that some of the less "busy" airports may have more relaxed security / access rules that allow for younger aspiring pilots looking for work, or future mechanics to apprentice with them. My rate was a lot less than the mechanics, but I learned a lot of valuable things and could do some of the things as long as I was under supervision. If you can pay some kid $6-10/hr to open hatches, screw panels, clean parts, vacuum, wipe down the belly, etc... and a number of other things a guy like me can do, then you have the opportunity to do your apprentice a favor, hopefully teach him valuable things, save your time as a mechanic for the more important tasks, and pass on savings to the customer, or keep your own rate comfortable for yourself. You're NOT cheating another shop in the process. It's not your fault that they can't compete, and it's good of you to pass on savings where you can. Also remember that the bigger airports have to charge for things like hangar space and leases at a rate that's generally a LOT higher than elsewhere. It's all about location, and convenience. Some customers will always stop at the big airports, while others will go wherever they can afford to.

Ryan

[Chris]

Man Oh Man, this is a topic that could get really nasty if you let it. So far, Kudos to everyone for keeping it civil. My own particular situation is pretty good. I've driven for UPS for 23 years (only 34 months left) and had my A&P for 13 years. I volunteered at the Az Wing of the CAF starting in about 1987 or so. As a kid, I used to help my neighbor with his old front engine dragster so I've been around oily greasy things as long as I can remember. I've worked for a warbird/gen aviation owner at Stellar airpark in Chandler for about four years now and it's the first time that I can really say that my A&P has allowed me to turn a decent profit. I certainly don't need to charge shop rates since I don't have the overhead but I also don't have some of the equipment neccessary to do some of the work needed. For instance, we need to eddy current the attach angles on the T-6 this month and it's getting outsourced to a professional outfit. This was discussed up front with the owner and and the appropriate fees were fixed. The same will happen with the P-51 as the prop AD comes up this year and I dont have the hoist to pull the prop. The owner has been gracious about flights in any of his planes so it's a trade off. Flying these beasts aren't cheap and I figure he's spending quite a bit just giving me rides once in a while. Plus the "mandatory" post maintenance flight, since the owner insists that since I worked on it I need to jump in the back seat and go for a ride. I think it's really up to the individual as to the freebie thing. If this is your livelyhood, by all means you need to charge full rate. As a side note, I won't work on anyones aircraft that I do not personally know and I won't offer advice on a potential issue with their plane. If I get questions from those individuals, I will refer them to one of several FBOs at Falcon Field in Mesa or if it's a warbird issue, I'll tell them about Dave Goss in Casa Grande. By the way, I know it's not a Cub or 152 but it took me all day just to pull all the covers on the T-6 today and do some lubing.

Last edited by Chris on Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

[tinbender2]

Perhaps I should clarify my earlier post.

I have done warbird work for free, for volunteer organizations, where no one gets paid, and for transients that stop in with a problem. I don’t think this is taking money from people who work on warbirds full-time, but please correct me if I am wrong.


I do favors for a FEW pilots, whom I know and respect, and am happy to be repaid with a “thank you”.
I have stopped doing this for total strangers, having been burned by a fair number of ungrateful pricks. I have extinguished two aircraft fires, from broken/loosened fuel lines. The first pilot cussed me out for creating a dust mess with two chemical extinguishers. The second time, the general manager yelled that he wasn’t paying me to fight fires, that was for the fire dept. By the time the crash trucks could have made the 2 mile drive around the perimeter road, the aircraft would have been a puddle of aluminum.


I stopped loaning tools to pilots years ago. I foolishly believed them, when they said they’d return ‘em, only to watch them start up and taxi away.

I no longer loan tools to fellow mechanics, with perhaps 1-2 exceptions. Some would ruin tools, and put them back without saying anything. Others would break my tools and offer an insincere apology and refuse to pay for it.
The last guy to borrow a tool, left one of my high-dollar, large, specialty tools, in the belly of an airliner, right next to the aileron bellcrank. He knew the tool was missing, never said anything, or even looked for it. The aircraft departed a week later, and it was just pure luck it didn’t crash. When the tool was found, everyone knew it was my tool, and the rumors flew fast and furious. He initially denied it. Had I been present when it was discovered, I’d have probably given the little twerp a few unforgettable memories.


It isn’t just volunteers that sometimes do horrible work. I’ve had plenty of new and old, A&Ps tell me they can do sheet metal work, and within 30 minutes it is obvious they have zero skills and knowledge in this area. Yet, their manager remains convinced that putting Jeffro with me on a big mod project, will get the job done in half the time. I documented, daily, the additional hours of work, with photos, required to correct a Jeffro’s mistakes. I showed them to the manager, daily. Jeffro only got pulled off the job when I quoted $10,000+ to replace the wing skins he accidentally cut into.
My introductory test now, is to hand an apprentice a bunch of rivets, ask them to identify each, and explain a typical application for them. About one in ten can do it.


When I quote labor for an annual, it is for everything except squawks. Research, inspection, servicing, etc. A new C-150 might get done in a day, using a single person, but anything bigger, more complex, much older, or a trash heap, is gonna take longer. I don’t pencil-whip anything. It also depends on the aircraft’s inspection forms. Six pages for a Piper compared to 38 pages for a Socata Trinidad. I use the manufacturer’s inspection guides, not a homemade, 4-page generic inspection checklist some people use.

[ZRX61]

I stopped loaning tools to pilots years ago.

I never started down that path

[mustangdriver]

As I volunteer let me say that I have seen first hand work that has been done by volunteers that far exceeded the quality of work done by the paid people. TO a level that a certain well known warbird on the warbird circuit went to it's base in Florida and a paid person felt it neceassary to write in article in a magazine about the poor worksmanship done by the volunteers. Only problem was that this paid person listed items that his paid people fixed not the volunteers.


WITHOUT VOLUNTEERS THERE WOULD BE A HELL OF ALOT LESS WARBIRDS OUT THERE.

[mustangdriver]

Volunteers

[skymstr02]

Volunteers

No, they were on Uncle Sams payroll.