Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 2:35 pm
and very well trained and led.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:20 pm
unless i missed something, was anyone complaining about volunteers?
i thought this thread was about shops and individuals taking business by under cutting costs sometimes but not always resulting in low quality work. i once annualed a Cherokee 140. This gentleman (who happened to be a anetheseologist) came to us with a long sad story about how he just gotten his certificate back after losing it for 30 days because he had flown with a AD that was past due.
The story went something like this: he was flying along one day when he got dizzy, disorientated and landed immediately somewhere in South Dakota. A inspection by a mechanic there found that one of the exhaust pin clamps had lost its pin which allowed the riser to separate from the muffler which in turn allowed exhaust to enter the cabin. The owner was seriously pessed off and complained to his local FSDO blaming his mechanic for not finding this. The FSDO investigated and found no fault with the mechanic which only made the owner more mad, so he wrote a letter to Oklahoma City questioning his FSDO inspector's intelligence. This was probably not a good idea on his part because he received a visit shortly thereafter by two maintenance inspectors who gave his aircraft the mother of all ramp checks, in the process they found an AD (I believe concerning the control yokes) which had been missed on several previous annual inspections. As a result the owner lost his certificate for 30 days and two different mechanics also had action taken against them. (Neither of the mechanics had anything to do with the exhaust problem).
To further the story,during the annual I did, I found two additional AD's never complied with but yet signed off in his logs as done, the flap handle AD which applies to almost all SE pipers had been signed off as "inspected and found OK" but the bushing which the AD requires be installed wasn't there (this particular AD became effective in 1996 and this was 2004). The second AD required replacing the landing light bracket to get rid of a rubber seal that found its way into the carburator of a differnt Cherokee once upon a time. This AD required little more than a glance to see it hadn't been done, yet multiple annuals had been done by many different mechanics since the AD became due. Apparantly since the logs said it was done, no one bothered to even look. I spent three weeks annualing this aircraft and repairing a long list of items the annual turned up including a flight manual many revisions out of date and a ELT that clearly hadn't functioned in quite a while, worn out aileron hinges, multiple cracks in the skin of one wing... (caused by a non mil-spec paint stripper?)
This owner and the owner before him had been getting the cheapest annual possible for many yrs and it was clear they had gotten exactly what they paid for. It's reasonable to pay less for maintenance at a smaller airport shop than at Duncan aviation simply because of the overhead difference. But to do a annual on a aircraft you haven't seen before for $400 to $600 means you either aren't going to make any money or you're taking shortcuts.
one last thing, I don't think the poster (postee?) who started this thread claimed to be making $30 /hr it looks like he was making a comparison with a corporate job to me.
i thought this thread was about shops and individuals taking business by under cutting costs sometimes but not always resulting in low quality work. i once annualed a Cherokee 140. This gentleman (who happened to be a anetheseologist) came to us with a long sad story about how he just gotten his certificate back after losing it for 30 days because he had flown with a AD that was past due.
The story went something like this: he was flying along one day when he got dizzy, disorientated and landed immediately somewhere in South Dakota. A inspection by a mechanic there found that one of the exhaust pin clamps had lost its pin which allowed the riser to separate from the muffler which in turn allowed exhaust to enter the cabin. The owner was seriously pessed off and complained to his local FSDO blaming his mechanic for not finding this. The FSDO investigated and found no fault with the mechanic which only made the owner more mad, so he wrote a letter to Oklahoma City questioning his FSDO inspector's intelligence. This was probably not a good idea on his part because he received a visit shortly thereafter by two maintenance inspectors who gave his aircraft the mother of all ramp checks, in the process they found an AD (I believe concerning the control yokes) which had been missed on several previous annual inspections. As a result the owner lost his certificate for 30 days and two different mechanics also had action taken against them. (Neither of the mechanics had anything to do with the exhaust problem).
To further the story,during the annual I did, I found two additional AD's never complied with but yet signed off in his logs as done, the flap handle AD which applies to almost all SE pipers had been signed off as "inspected and found OK" but the bushing which the AD requires be installed wasn't there (this particular AD became effective in 1996 and this was 2004). The second AD required replacing the landing light bracket to get rid of a rubber seal that found its way into the carburator of a differnt Cherokee once upon a time. This AD required little more than a glance to see it hadn't been done, yet multiple annuals had been done by many different mechanics since the AD became due. Apparantly since the logs said it was done, no one bothered to even look. I spent three weeks annualing this aircraft and repairing a long list of items the annual turned up including a flight manual many revisions out of date and a ELT that clearly hadn't functioned in quite a while, worn out aileron hinges, multiple cracks in the skin of one wing... (caused by a non mil-spec paint stripper?)
This owner and the owner before him had been getting the cheapest annual possible for many yrs and it was clear they had gotten exactly what they paid for. It's reasonable to pay less for maintenance at a smaller airport shop than at Duncan aviation simply because of the overhead difference. But to do a annual on a aircraft you haven't seen before for $400 to $600 means you either aren't going to make any money or you're taking shortcuts.
one last thing, I don't think the poster (postee?) who started this thread claimed to be making $30 /hr it looks like he was making a comparison with a corporate job to me.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:36 pm
skymstr02 wrote:mustangdriver wrote:Volunteers
No, they were on Uncle Sams payroll.
No, for the raid each man had to volunteer. They would have gotten the same pay regardless.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:30 pm
Thanks for all the responses, this has been a very constructive and civil thread, lots of good input! 
Thanks to some of the responders, Flyboyj, Chris, Tinbender2,ZRX61,Skymstr02,Jackcook,Sabremech"Dave".
I thought of posting this as an offtopic but felt it might not hit the mainstream viewers.
This was not meant to be a topic that would open a can-o-worms but be constructive.
Brucevs' post brings up a very good point how an aircraft could have been through many inspections,
sign offs and ADs were missed and or ignored but yet signed off.
This is not acceptable, I have been accused of being too slow and "ANAL" when I do an inspection
on an aircraft like a C-152, but have found that the previous mech (who performed the inspection in less
than a day), but yet this shop and guy was getting praises for his "quick turnaround and $500 dollar bill"...
This shop and mech did the owners of that aircraft no favors as it took me a week to fix alot of Squawks,
comply with ADs' that were not signed off and even items like servicing, wheel bearings that were dirty,
dry and had NO grease left in them, one set of bearings were discolored (blue in color) from heat...
That list went on and on, enough said.
Thanks again Brucev, you hit the core of this topic why we shouldn't be undersold...
This is a very diverse field we work in, unlike other work trades that are very cut and dry.
It's tough when you bust your' butt to do a good job for an aircraft owner only to hear the complaints.
Yes maybe that "Might" make me a little bitter but I keep the faith, and still love my work.
Thanks, Out Here, Tom
Thanks to some of the responders, Flyboyj, Chris, Tinbender2,ZRX61,Skymstr02,Jackcook,Sabremech"Dave".
I thought of posting this as an offtopic but felt it might not hit the mainstream viewers.
This was not meant to be a topic that would open a can-o-worms but be constructive.
Brucevs' post brings up a very good point how an aircraft could have been through many inspections,
sign offs and ADs were missed and or ignored but yet signed off.
This is not acceptable, I have been accused of being too slow and "ANAL" when I do an inspection
on an aircraft like a C-152, but have found that the previous mech (who performed the inspection in less
than a day), but yet this shop and guy was getting praises for his "quick turnaround and $500 dollar bill"...
This shop and mech did the owners of that aircraft no favors as it took me a week to fix alot of Squawks,
comply with ADs' that were not signed off and even items like servicing, wheel bearings that were dirty,
dry and had NO grease left in them, one set of bearings were discolored (blue in color) from heat...
That list went on and on, enough said.
Thanks again Brucev, you hit the core of this topic why we shouldn't be undersold...
This is a very diverse field we work in, unlike other work trades that are very cut and dry.
It's tough when you bust your' butt to do a good job for an aircraft owner only to hear the complaints.
Yes maybe that "Might" make me a little bitter but I keep the faith, and still love my work.
Thanks, Out Here, Tom
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:54 pm
That is a great post. I didn't mean to sound like I was downplaying the role of the A&P, just that volunteers are vital to warbirds. As for you being slow or ANAL, I would rather have an ANAL A&P. Oh, and just because I don't get to say it too much on this forum, Anal.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:45 pm
I believe the economy exacerbates the "I want a freebie" mentality. In the music business, some client believe because they've booked for a four hour time window, they have rights to you all day. I've had some clients need to have the band set up hours before they are required to start and really chafe at why they're being charged early set up. Or, a client that is running late, so you have musicians sitting around for an hour doing nothing. Then, when they have to stay an hour longer and we charge them overtime, they freak out. We even have clients with signed contracts and deposits paid that want to "renegotiate" their prices. Now, there are some clients who approach you the right...you'd do anything for them.
I agree that the quality of the volunteers is almost always going to be directly proportional to quality of the management and/or preparation of those volunteers. I volunteer with a local police department. When I first signed on, the management was a bit scattershot. We then got a new officer, a sergeant, to run the program and she literally turned the program around 180 degrees.
I agree that the quality of the volunteers is almost always going to be directly proportional to quality of the management and/or preparation of those volunteers. I volunteer with a local police department. When I first signed on, the management was a bit scattershot. We then got a new officer, a sergeant, to run the program and she literally turned the program around 180 degrees.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:11 am
SaxMan wrote:I agree that the quality of the volunteers is almost always going to be directly proportional to quality of the management and/or preparation of those volunteers. I volunteer with a local police department. When I first signed on, the management was a bit scattershot. We then got a new officer, a sergeant, to run the program and she literally turned the program around 180 degrees.
Generally speaking, if the quality of your volunteer exceeds management one of two thinks usually result:
1 - he replaces management
2 - he leaves
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:18 pm
wrenchturner wrote:This topic may not be right for posting on the hanger but I felt compelled to do so.
How many "WIXERS" work in an aviation job, Part 91, Part 135 etc.
I work for a small aviation maintenence shop located in the midwest.
We have a very tight budget and we get paid less than other mechs on the airport.
The corporate outfits pay $30.00 plus an hour to their mechs.
Now to put this in a "nut shell", we get calls everyday, from people with "squawks".
"somethings not right with my airplane", what's wrong...
We can't fix it unless we see it, right.
Too many aircraft owners want something for free, and it's getting old.
Try calling a Laywer, plumber, electrician etc.
They all will tell you, it'll be a one hour min charge, why should or should'nt we be the
same...
Now comes the biggest hit, who pays for our maintenence manuals.
The FAA says we have to have "Current" revisions etc.
Who pays for that, or do we just add it to somebodys bill.
Maybe some letter writing to the FAA, AMT magazine, AOPA etc. might do it.
Any comments would help.
if you knew how much I got paid you would probably laugh and look down on me.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:02 pm
Here's an update to this post, a perfect example...
Today at AnyAirport U.S.A. it's a balmy 18 degrees F, with a shop full of aircraft and understaffed
it's a busy day.
A Cessna 421 taxis' onto the ramp and the pilot enters the shop with a problem, as these things
usually go he demands that I drop what I'm doing to fix his problem, OK, good for buisness, bad for me.
The pilot reports that his left main gear down and lock light was out and that an unsafe gear warn
horn was on.
I tell him I'll look at it on the ramp, the wiring was intact, a simple test was done with a feeler gauge
to test the switch and it worked, but when the switch was pulled from its' mount the contact arm
on the micro switch was broken.
Easy fix, right, if you have the part, luckily we did.
During the install of the new part the pilot and his buddy complained about how they did not want
to spend the night in our town "Any Airport USA" .
After the install and a few ground checks and freezing my butt off these guys were good to go.
The trouble shoot took 15 min., part install 30 min. ...
Then came the bill, $90.00 bucks parts and labor, then came the complaints about the bill.
Cry babies for sure, but suck it up, we fixed your' problem, under bad if not harsh conditions.
I guess aircraft owners think we do this kind of work everyday for free or we love it that much
to provide a service for minimum wage.
And this is not an isolated issue, happens everyday.
I don't get it...
This is the first repair station I'ved worked at, I've worked at this airport for 20 plus years and
this gives me a very bitter pill to swallow when it comes to aircraft maintenece.
There is no job I love more than this, but having to deal with that crap really does not help.
Thanks
Today at AnyAirport U.S.A. it's a balmy 18 degrees F, with a shop full of aircraft and understaffed
it's a busy day.
A Cessna 421 taxis' onto the ramp and the pilot enters the shop with a problem, as these things
usually go he demands that I drop what I'm doing to fix his problem, OK, good for buisness, bad for me.
The pilot reports that his left main gear down and lock light was out and that an unsafe gear warn
horn was on.
I tell him I'll look at it on the ramp, the wiring was intact, a simple test was done with a feeler gauge
to test the switch and it worked, but when the switch was pulled from its' mount the contact arm
on the micro switch was broken.
Easy fix, right, if you have the part, luckily we did.
During the install of the new part the pilot and his buddy complained about how they did not want
to spend the night in our town "Any Airport USA" .
After the install and a few ground checks and freezing my butt off these guys were good to go.
The trouble shoot took 15 min., part install 30 min. ...
Then came the bill, $90.00 bucks parts and labor, then came the complaints about the bill.
Cry babies for sure, but suck it up, we fixed your' problem, under bad if not harsh conditions.
I guess aircraft owners think we do this kind of work everyday for free or we love it that much
to provide a service for minimum wage.
And this is not an isolated issue, happens everyday.
I don't get it...
This is the first repair station I'ved worked at, I've worked at this airport for 20 plus years and
this gives me a very bitter pill to swallow when it comes to aircraft maintenece.
There is no job I love more than this, but having to deal with that crap really does not help.
Thanks
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:13 pm
in that example the bill would have been substantially higher in my shop, i've had very few complaints about our labor rates but a fair amount of gripes over our hangar fees for an overnight stay.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:17 am
$90?????? 
$90?????????????
For a drop in? that interrupted your regular work by at least an hour? in the cold? with ungrateful pilots? fixing a possibly very serious problem?
My shop would have charged them $200+. I gotta wonder what you are paying in liability insurance premiums.
Anyone that inconveniences our scheduled operation, is going to get their wallet inconvenienced to a similar degree. Our clients DEMAND we meet our projected completion dates.
If the drop-in pilots want to be pricks, we politely tell them it will be at least a day before we can work on it, so they taxi over to our competitor, who will take 2-3 times longer, and absolutely rape them on the bill, with no guarantee they even fixed the problem correctly.
We don't want their aggravation, the interruption of our schedule, or them badmouthing us to everyone they know, for 1-2 hours of work. It is better for us, if they waste our competitors time, badmouth them, and get royally screwed on the bill.
Picking your customers carefully can really help your bottom line.
$90?????????????
For a drop in? that interrupted your regular work by at least an hour? in the cold? with ungrateful pilots? fixing a possibly very serious problem?
My shop would have charged them $200+. I gotta wonder what you are paying in liability insurance premiums.
Anyone that inconveniences our scheduled operation, is going to get their wallet inconvenienced to a similar degree. Our clients DEMAND we meet our projected completion dates.
If the drop-in pilots want to be pricks, we politely tell them it will be at least a day before we can work on it, so they taxi over to our competitor, who will take 2-3 times longer, and absolutely rape them on the bill, with no guarantee they even fixed the problem correctly.
We don't want their aggravation, the interruption of our schedule, or them badmouthing us to everyone they know, for 1-2 hours of work. It is better for us, if they waste our competitors time, badmouth them, and get royally screwed on the bill.
Picking your customers carefully can really help your bottom line.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:06 am
I work in the Auto industry here in Australia and I have similar issues . People turning up and expecting work to be done ASAP . Its not too bad though , my biggest issue is parts supply . Sometimes Im left waiting months for parts . Surely you guys in the aircraft trade have similar issues ! I regularily have 20+ cars here , Id hate to see how big a hanger with 20+ planes would be !
CraigQ- The wages for a mechanic here in Aus gotta be the lowest . The only trade lower to get paid by the hour are hairdressers . I think the award wage for a mechanic is $15.50 an hour now . An Apprentice starts on $5.30 an hour . Now to give you an insight in how low the pay is : A loaf of bread is $3 , 1l of fuel is about $1.20 and a large big mac meal from Mcdonalds is about $7.50 ! Yep , an apprentice cant even earn enough in an hour to feed himself !!!
Wrenchturner- You should have charged more . The main thing all you guys working in the industry need to look at is : Im doing work on his plane , if something goes wrong Im liable . I have to pay insurance , rent etc etc . If you start being too cheap your shooting yourself in the foot . You need to be reasonable to yourself and not to your customers . If your good at your job people will come back . If your too cheap your gonna have the wrong people coming back ! I would have charged $200 as well !!!
I have my own small workshop and I do a lot of race cars here . I found that working for a factory race team the pay is small , but it gives you a lot of prestige and opens up a lot of doors which has helped propel my small workshop (I was even offered a job in F1 which I declined to start a family !) . I occassionaly have some guys that work here for free , I give them jobs which they can handle and I teach them when they dont know . I sometimes feel guilty they work for free but I always make sure their cars are worked on and they are taught what I know and I help with giving them parts .
As for volunteers , well , I wish I had the time . I work 7 days and only take time off to race or watch warbirds . Public holidays/weekends are good cause less people call and the neighbours dont work ! Id love to build a warbird on the side or even help build one but I dont think I have the time ! Those who volunteer to build warbirds have a passion and have time and need guidance . Paid mechanics should lead volunteers into doing the crappy jobs , that way projects can get done faster !
Im curious though , those who own their own aero workshop how much is insurance per year ? Im paying close to $10k for an automotive workshop with 2 loan cars !
On a side note : I wanna build a Reno Air racer and am willing to employ a full time aviation mechanic to help me build a plane , only issue is he needs to help me with automotive work and work on the plane after hours/weekends or when we arent busy (laughs hard) . Do you think aviation mechanics would take an interest in doing such a venture or is there a line between automotive/aeromotive line that you dont cross ?
CraigQ- The wages for a mechanic here in Aus gotta be the lowest . The only trade lower to get paid by the hour are hairdressers . I think the award wage for a mechanic is $15.50 an hour now . An Apprentice starts on $5.30 an hour . Now to give you an insight in how low the pay is : A loaf of bread is $3 , 1l of fuel is about $1.20 and a large big mac meal from Mcdonalds is about $7.50 ! Yep , an apprentice cant even earn enough in an hour to feed himself !!!
Wrenchturner- You should have charged more . The main thing all you guys working in the industry need to look at is : Im doing work on his plane , if something goes wrong Im liable . I have to pay insurance , rent etc etc . If you start being too cheap your shooting yourself in the foot . You need to be reasonable to yourself and not to your customers . If your good at your job people will come back . If your too cheap your gonna have the wrong people coming back ! I would have charged $200 as well !!!
I have my own small workshop and I do a lot of race cars here . I found that working for a factory race team the pay is small , but it gives you a lot of prestige and opens up a lot of doors which has helped propel my small workshop (I was even offered a job in F1 which I declined to start a family !) . I occassionaly have some guys that work here for free , I give them jobs which they can handle and I teach them when they dont know . I sometimes feel guilty they work for free but I always make sure their cars are worked on and they are taught what I know and I help with giving them parts .
As for volunteers , well , I wish I had the time . I work 7 days and only take time off to race or watch warbirds . Public holidays/weekends are good cause less people call and the neighbours dont work ! Id love to build a warbird on the side or even help build one but I dont think I have the time ! Those who volunteer to build warbirds have a passion and have time and need guidance . Paid mechanics should lead volunteers into doing the crappy jobs , that way projects can get done faster !
Im curious though , those who own their own aero workshop how much is insurance per year ? Im paying close to $10k for an automotive workshop with 2 loan cars !
On a side note : I wanna build a Reno Air racer and am willing to employ a full time aviation mechanic to help me build a plane , only issue is he needs to help me with automotive work and work on the plane after hours/weekends or when we arent busy (laughs hard) . Do you think aviation mechanics would take an interest in doing such a venture or is there a line between automotive/aeromotive line that you dont cross ?
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:47 am
tinbender2 wrote:Picking your customers carefully can really help your bottom line.
Good business principle.
Bug_racer wrote:...(I was even offered a job in F1 which I declined to start a family !)...
That's the other way to make your money go fast.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:26 am
That example you named, those pilots were dead wrong. If you come into a repait shop with a problem and someone fixes it, then you should expect to pay. To me a $90 bill in aviation, is not a large bill at all.
Re: Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.
Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:03 pm
Bug_racer wrote:...On a side note : I wanna build a Reno Air racer and am willing to employ a full time aviation mechanic to help me build a plane , only issue is he needs to help me with automotive work and work on the plane after hours/weekends or when we arent busy (laughs hard) . Do you think aviation mechanics would take an interest in doing such a venture or is there a line between automotive/aeromotive line that you dont cross ?
my experience (limited to one person) is the two fields don't mix. The mindset of this person, who came from a auto background didn't work out very well in our shop. He was just a bit to carefree to do meticulous work and I felt I had to constantly check over his work.