Forgotten stories: from Pearl Harbor to Midway: updated

[Nathan]

As many of you know I am a big buff on Pearl Harbor through to Midway. There are some very interesting combat seen during those days. Some of these events some of you may not know about so figured I would write alittle about them.

-F2A-3 Buffalo's down a Japanese H8K flying boat at Midway:


Actually the USMC Buffalo's on Midway scored their first kill months before the Battle of Midway took place. On March 10, 1942 Midway Island picked up a blip on radar. Four F2A-3 Buffalo's of VMF-221 led by Capt. Neefus were scrambled. In the ensuing combat the four Buffalo's were able to shoot down the pre-production H8K Emily flying boat that had been flying close to Midway. The H8K's were on mission to scout Pearl Harbor.

-PBY-5's of VP-14 at Pearl Harbor

Three PBY-5's of VP-14 from Kaneohe NAS where out on armed Patrol in the very early hours of December 7th 1941. PBY-5 BuNo 2419, 14-P-1, flown by Ens. William P. Tanner spotted a USN destroyer attacking a submerged object just outside the harbor entrance. Armed with depth charges, Tanner circled above dropped depth chargers on sub. The destroyer in question was the USS Ward attacking a Japanese midget sub. This midget sub was hit and sunk by the Ward. Combined with the USS Ward and Tanners PBY would be the first shots fired on December 7th 1941. Dispite our unprepairdness for war this was a very successful attack! Other planes of VP-14 did not fair to well as the majority where destroyed on the ground at Kaneohe.

At 1000, 14-P-2, still on patrol, was attacked by nine Japanese Zero type aircraft returning to the Japanese aircraft carriers of the attack force. It was assumed that because of the fuel state of the Japanese aircraft, the attack was not prolonged. 14-P-2 was slightly damaged but proceeded on the assigned search after Japanese aircraft aborted the attack. That had to be some thrill for the PBY crew!


A PBY-5 of VP-12 at Kaneohe(one of VP-14's sister squadrons)can be seen totally destroyed in the raid. The Japanese showed no mercy towards the old PBY's.


More to come later.

thanks,
Nathan

Last edited by Nathan on Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

[the330thbg]

Very neat stuff! Thanks so much for sharing!

[Holedigger]

Indeed, flying boats were rather vulnerable to attack, whether flying or on the ground. They did tend to be large and on the slow side. They played critical roles throughout the war, but in active combat, it was best not to be seen, hence the Black Cats later in the war.

[Nathan]

-Midway PBY night time torpedo attack

Four PBY-5A's from VP-24 and VP-51 took off to make a night torpedo strike. Encountering the Japanese transport force in the early hours of 4 June. The PBY's carrying torpedos hit the oiler Akebono Maru with one torpedo, the only successful U.S. aerial torpedo attack of the entire battle.

Below is a photo of the four PBY pilots envolved in the night action at Midway. (left to right):
Lt. Douglas C. Davis, of VP-24.
Ensign Allan Rothenberg, of VP-51.
Lieutenant William L. Richards, Executive Officer of Patrol Squadron 44 (VP-44), who flew in a VP-24 aircraft on this mission.
Ensign Gaylord D. Propst, of VP-24.

[Nathan]

-Curtiss SOC Seagulls make attack on Zero.

During the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor two Curtiss SOC Seagulls for the cruiser USS Northampton launched and during the flight accountered a Japanese A6M2 Zero. Gunners of both SOC's were able to damaged the Zero but in turn both SOC's were damaged as well. Those gunners on the Seagulls must of been good shots!!

More later hope you enjoy,
Nathan

[Holedigger]

...or that Zero pilot got a little too over confident! You know how fighter pilots can get!!!! If he was flying slow enough to engage Seagulls, he was probably bushing along a bit. Better to do high speed passes that slow to their speeds

[JOHN MILLER]

found these I had.
john
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... arl-10.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm18 ... earl-8.jpg

[David_Aiken]

1) On March 10, 1942 Midway Island picked up a blimp on radar.

-PBY-5's of VP-14 at Pearl Harbor
2) Three PBY-5's of VP-14 from Kaneohe NAS where out on armed Patrol in the very early hours of December 7th 1941. PBY-5 BuNo 2419, 14-P-1, flown by Ens. William P. Tanner spotted a USN destroyer attacking a submerged object just outside the harbor entrance.
3) At 1000, 14-P-2, still on patrol, was attacked by nine Japanese Zero type aircraft returning to the Japanese aircraft carriers of the attack force.

1) "blimp" is a soft airship... a "blip" is a radar echo
2) Tanner saw the midget sub and dropped a smoke pot THEN the USS Ward fired on the midget...
3) The "Zeros" had fixed gear...ie: VALs

HTH,
David

[Nathan]

Thanks David for the correction and added details to the others.

I made a long story short on Tanners attack. He dropped markers for the Ward. Ward attacked followed by Tanner dropping depth charges.

Cheers,
Nathan the schoolgirl

[John Dupre]

Nathan,

Have you seen the news about the discovery of the 5th mini sub? Apparently it sank or was scuttled in the West Loch on Dec. 7 or 8 in the area that in 1944 saw the destruction and sinking of several LSTs prior to an invasion. The Navy kept the LST explosions secret and during the salvage apparently brought up the sub and dumped the whole mess outside the harbor. The question is whether this sub torpedoed Oklahoma or took shots at St. Louis as she steamed out of the harbor. There will be a Nova episode in January.

John Dupre'

[David_Aiken]

Nathan,

Have you seen the news about the discovery of the 5th mini sub? Apparently it sank or was scuttled in the West Loch on Dec. 7 or 8 in the area that in 1944 saw the destruction and sinking of several LSTs prior to an invasion. The Navy kept the LST explosions secret and during the salvage apparently brought up the sub and dumped the whole mess outside the harbor. The question is whether this sub torpedoed Oklahoma or took shots at St. Louis as she steamed out of the harbor. There will be a Nova episode in January.

John Dupre'

Aloha John,
The submarine in West Loch is the USS F-4 submarine...it was NOT and never was a Japanese midget sub...nor was there a Japanese midget sub in West Loch.

The dump ground area outside of Pearl Harbor is just south of the Tripod Reef...which was the area where the USS St Louis was attacked by "Midget E", the 5th submarine. The LST junk was dumped there along with a LOT of other items.

This "midget sub firing on BB Row" tale has been retold often, since Burl Burlingame's ADVANCE FORCE PEARL HARBOR (1992) suggested that a Japanese aerial photo, taken from the late Hirata Matsumura's B5N "KATE", showed two torpedoes from a midget submarine to fire on BB Row. Photo in question:
[url]http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Tech_Intel_Pearl_Harbor##photo=49[/url]

order of the torpedos launched by KATEs on BB Row:
http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Tech_Intel_Pearl_Harbor#photo=21

The myth has just as often been rebutted. Logically, if a submarine was in the position, which Burlingame suggested, to GET turned into that location to fire torpedoes in the time frame suggested, the submarine would have BLOCKED all aerial hits onto BB Row before the photo was made...and continued to block them thus preventing the USS OK from turning over. IF such was done, we should award the misget sub CO a posthumous medal for absorbing the aerial attack....yet, sadly, the USS OK and USS WeeVee WERE hit and often...

This myth ignored the many witnesses on three ships outside of Pearl Harbor to an attack by this 5th midget sub onto the USS St Louis:
**Moored next to USS Honolulu, St. Louis was the first cruiser to get underway, backing from her berth at 0931. Steaming through oil fires, snapping a steel cable that linked a dredge to shore and almost hitting Ford Island, she rushed down the outer channel of Pearl Harbor at 22 knots. Almost at sea, two torpedoes were spotted to starboard, heading directly toward St. Louis. Increasing speed to 25 knots, she maneuvered as best she could within the confines of the channel and primarily hoped to outrun the torpedoes. Fortunately, both torpedoes exploded on coral near Buoy No. 1. Spotting what was believed to be the conning tower of the midget submarine that had attacked her, St. Louis opened fire with her five inch battery; gunners claimed they hit the top of the periscope fairwater and observed the object plunge underwater. In actuality, St. Louis had fired upon Crossbill's Oropesa minesweeping float. Unable to avoid the minesweepers due to her speed, St. Louis roared between the two ships--"probably scaring the hell out of both of them", as her skipper later recounted--severing Cockatoo's starboard minesweeping gear. Undaunted, St. Louis reached the open seas.**

The real discovery of the 5th midget submarine seems lost by the myth.

The first report about this 5th submarine was revealed by NHK-TV on 6 Dec 2009...which you may view via: http://channel.pandora.tv/channel/video.ptv?ch_userid=fx_keaton&prgid=36608676. The longer version is to be aired on the NHK-TV Premium channel on 19 Dec...see: http://www.nhk.or.jp/bs/hvsp
http://www.nhk.or.jp/special/onair/091206.html

HTH,
David Aiken

[Andy in West Oz]

Hi David

I am grateful for your mention of USS F-4 as it has led me down a path of discovery to read about a submarine and crew I had never heard of before. I visited the USS Bowfin museum in early August this year and thoroughly immersed myself in another of my loves - submarines. I just wish I had known about the F-4.

I was reading this but it mentions nothing of her being dug up with the LSTs - http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/us ... 29/f4.html

I, too, don't believe the fifth submarine is where this Nova mob are saying it is. The fish fired at the St Louis does it for me. Are the researchers confusing the F-4 as the 'submarine in the lagoon' and making the (large) leap/misguided assumption? The article suggests she's still where they dumped her so what are the Nova chaps on about if they've apparently found a sub among the LST wreckage? My first thought when I read about it was the LSTs had been, rather fortuitously, dumped on the/a sub wreck.

[David_Aiken]

I was reading this but it mentions nothing of her being dug up with the LSTs - http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/us ... 29/f4.html

I, too, don't believe the fifth submarine is where this Nova mob are saying it is. The fish fired at the St Louis does it for me. Are the researchers confusing the F-4 as the 'submarine in the lagoon' and making the (large) leap/misguided assumption? The article suggests she's still where they dumped her so what are the Nova chaps on about if they've apparently found a sub among the LST wreckage? My first thought when I read about it was the LSTs had been, rather fortuitously, dumped on the/a sub wreck.

Hi John,
Be careful...NOVA is innocent. The production company for this documentary http://www.lonewolfdg.com/ is also innocent... guided by a researcher and the "midget fired on BB Row" myth. Alas, that researcher wanted to prove the midget in question HAD penetrated the harbor to fire on the USS Oklahoma and USS Arizona.

The "Torpedoing Pearl Harbor" article assured that the USS Arizona was never breached by a torpedo. An error in the USS Helm report says that a large spike of water from a 'torpedo' came up from the side of that ship just as the USS Arizona exploded...when the spike was caused by one of the five bombs dropped by high-level HIRYU KATEs which another of the five bombs exploded the ship. See John DeVirgilio's artwork in BATTLESHIP ARIZONA by Paul Stillwell [Annapolis, MD: Naval Institute Press; 1989] for more on that splash. Thus the documentary researcher changed his tune to "a dud" from a hit on the USS Arizona.

The final torpedo hit on the USS Oklahoma is shown in http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h50000/h50472.jpg The pilot who dropped that torpedo gave his history in "Torpedoing Pearl Harbor". http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Tech_Intel_Pearl_Harbor#photo=31 In "Japanese Thunderfish", Naval History magazine, Winter 1991, John DeVirgilio gave detailed reasoning for the importance of that torpedo hit in the turn over of the ship.
[url]http://japaneseaircraft.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Tech_Intel_Pearl_Harbor##photo=57[/url]
THAT torpedo is mistaken by the researcher as the one fired from the non-existant midget sub.

Uniquely, the USS California's Admiral boat was located where the "midget sub" has been cited...and those witnesses were quite aware of the aerial torpedos being dropped around them! They changed course for the 'finger piers'!

HTH,
David Aiken

[Holedigger]

Interesting historical insights as usual, Thank You David! That mini sub theory keeps on popping up, getting knocked down and coming back up again. Kind of like "Whack a Mole"! The story of the St Lois and her dash to the see hardly gets any ink. Just how big was the flotilla at the end of the day patrolling the Hawaiian waters looking to repel the expected invasion. I know quite of few aircraft were up by the end of the day as well as advance units from the carriers arriving to a nasty greeting of AAA.

[Nathan]

-Flight of B-17's coming in from the mainland.

A well known part of December 7th was the flight of B-17's that ended up arriving in Oahu the same time as the Japanese were attacking the Island. I am sure confusion is putting it lightly for the B-17 crews that had to fly into that!

The aircraft in that flight consisted of: 2 B-17E's and 4 B-17C's of the 38th Reconn Squadron, and 6 B-17E's of the 88th Reconn Squadron, of the 7th Bomb Group. Their intended destination was Hickam Field the main bomber field on Oahu. This was a total of 12 B-17's. But actually there was suppost to be 16 B-17's from California. But 3 of those never left Hamilton and the fouth had to turn back. We only know one marking from this flight of B-17's and that is of B-17C #49 that crashed at Bellows Field. The B-17E's were fresh from the factory and were void of any markings. (Serial numbers were applied from early 1942 at Boeing factory.) All of these B-17's were painted Olive drab.

A few B-17's landed at Hickam, one or two at the small airstrip at Haleiwa, the one at Bellows, and one at a small private airstrip on I beleive a golf course.

Below is a picture of B-17C #49 at Bellows.


Enjoy and more to come,
Nathan