Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:41 am
A bit of an update for you, and some encouraging news 
Hunt on for rare Spitfire parts
NZPA Last updated 13:01 11/12/2009
The owner of a rare Spitfire damaged in a landing mishap in Auckland last week has begun a hunt for spare parts which may take him to the other side of the world.
Doug Brooker's Supermarine mark IX, two-seater Spitfire, slewed to one side as it landed at Ardmore Airport south of Auckland last week and tipped onto its nose. Its four bladed wooden propeller and parts of its undercarriage were damaged and there was minor cosmetic damage to the underbelly.
Mr Brooker said the damage was not significant but as there were no shops selling spare Spitfire parts his search could take him to the other side of the world.
He said he had sourced new propeller blades which should arrive in January but he still needed parts for the undercarriage.
The mishap made international news because of the profile the Spitfires had during World War 2.
Mr Brooker said it was a very minor mishap.
"The wind turned around and it pushed the aircraft off line a bit. It was a pretty innocuous landing.
"One wheel folded up as the aircraft yawed around in the wind. I sat there and swore."
Mr Brooker said there were no factory built two-seater Spitfires.
After the war about 29 single seater mark IX Spitfires aircraft were converted into two seaters as training aircraft but there were only about five left around the world, he said.
He said he had "great hopes" he would get his Spitfire back in the air within three months.
"But that depends on the availability of parts."
He said the cost of repairs was immaterial.
"It's a bit like saying how much are you going to spend on a Picasso," he said.
The Spitfire was believed to be worth about $3 million. It arrived in New Zealand on September 11 last year, and was painted in RAF desert colours with the markings of a Mk IX flown by a New Zealand Squadron Leader Colin Gray, when based in Tunisia in 1943.
It was the aircraft's second accident in New Zealand. In January it was damaged when it landed heavily at Hood Aerodrome, near Masterton.
Mr Brooker said damage in the latest incident was "nowhere as bad as Masterton".
Hunt on for rare Spitfire parts
NZPA Last updated 13:01 11/12/2009
The owner of a rare Spitfire damaged in a landing mishap in Auckland last week has begun a hunt for spare parts which may take him to the other side of the world.
Doug Brooker's Supermarine mark IX, two-seater Spitfire, slewed to one side as it landed at Ardmore Airport south of Auckland last week and tipped onto its nose. Its four bladed wooden propeller and parts of its undercarriage were damaged and there was minor cosmetic damage to the underbelly.
Mr Brooker said the damage was not significant but as there were no shops selling spare Spitfire parts his search could take him to the other side of the world.
He said he had sourced new propeller blades which should arrive in January but he still needed parts for the undercarriage.
The mishap made international news because of the profile the Spitfires had during World War 2.
Mr Brooker said it was a very minor mishap.
"The wind turned around and it pushed the aircraft off line a bit. It was a pretty innocuous landing.
"One wheel folded up as the aircraft yawed around in the wind. I sat there and swore."
Mr Brooker said there were no factory built two-seater Spitfires.
After the war about 29 single seater mark IX Spitfires aircraft were converted into two seaters as training aircraft but there were only about five left around the world, he said.
He said he had "great hopes" he would get his Spitfire back in the air within three months.
"But that depends on the availability of parts."
He said the cost of repairs was immaterial.
"It's a bit like saying how much are you going to spend on a Picasso," he said.
The Spitfire was believed to be worth about $3 million. It arrived in New Zealand on September 11 last year, and was painted in RAF desert colours with the markings of a Mk IX flown by a New Zealand Squadron Leader Colin Gray, when based in Tunisia in 1943.
It was the aircraft's second accident in New Zealand. In January it was damaged when it landed heavily at Hood Aerodrome, near Masterton.
Mr Brooker said damage in the latest incident was "nowhere as bad as Masterton".
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:18 am
Aerobatic champion in what? It's like comparing a Kayaker to an open water cigarette boat racer.
Charlie Hilliard, a great aerobatic pilot and all around nice guy died in a simple landing accident in his Sea Fury. I think the accident report listed something like 16 hours in his aircraft and 21 hours total time in type. (He locked the brakes trying to make the taxiway at airshow center.)
Harry Doan, similar story. Too high, too fast, too little runway remaining, if he knew the airplane better he would have made a go around. (Skyraider)
Maybe while the Spitfire is being repaired he can sign up for a complete T-6 checkout or spend some time at Stallion 51 in the TF-51, if his ego will allow.
Charlie Hilliard, a great aerobatic pilot and all around nice guy died in a simple landing accident in his Sea Fury. I think the accident report listed something like 16 hours in his aircraft and 21 hours total time in type. (He locked the brakes trying to make the taxiway at airshow center.)
Harry Doan, similar story. Too high, too fast, too little runway remaining, if he knew the airplane better he would have made a go around. (Skyraider)
Maybe while the Spitfire is being repaired he can sign up for a complete T-6 checkout or spend some time at Stallion 51 in the TF-51, if his ego will allow.
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:23 am
Zac, would you be able to find out and let me know the source that he is using for the prop blades, and if possible the price.? I also need a set after a mishap.
And, as I said in the start of this topic, if the owner wants to discuss Spitfire flying or landing please let me know and I'll give you my phone number.
If that is the same two seat Spitfire that was in Florida, ex Dick Melton/Charles Church, then I have taxied it once, never got to fly it.
As for "no factory built two seat Spitfires", well yes and no, I think the prototype MK VIIII, might have been built from scratch. All the other factory ones like mine were built as single seaters and then rebuilt or modified after the war, but done by the Supermarine factory. I did not know that there were 29, I know of about 20, and have seen figures around 26.
There are also some two seaters that are not factory original, that is they were converted privately, not by the factory. That seems a lot of work, but they have become more popular now. The first one was the one that Carolyn Grace has now, that her husband Nick, converted from a single seater, and used the lower rear canopy.
I have also seen? a two seater converted by the Russians in the war with the lower rear canopy. I have not seen the aircraft only photos of it.
Of course, the factory ones have full dual controls in the rear, all except starting and radios, so they are two cockpit for training, not just two seaters to give a ride in.
And, as I said in the start of this topic, if the owner wants to discuss Spitfire flying or landing please let me know and I'll give you my phone number.
If that is the same two seat Spitfire that was in Florida, ex Dick Melton/Charles Church, then I have taxied it once, never got to fly it.
As for "no factory built two seat Spitfires", well yes and no, I think the prototype MK VIIII, might have been built from scratch. All the other factory ones like mine were built as single seaters and then rebuilt or modified after the war, but done by the Supermarine factory. I did not know that there were 29, I know of about 20, and have seen figures around 26.
There are also some two seaters that are not factory original, that is they were converted privately, not by the factory. That seems a lot of work, but they have become more popular now. The first one was the one that Carolyn Grace has now, that her husband Nick, converted from a single seater, and used the lower rear canopy.
I have also seen? a two seater converted by the Russians in the war with the lower rear canopy. I have not seen the aircraft only photos of it.
Of course, the factory ones have full dual controls in the rear, all except starting and radios, so they are two cockpit for training, not just two seaters to give a ride in.
Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:43 am
It's a two-seater. Was someone training in it?
Dave
Dave
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:38 pm
Dave Hadfield wrote:It's a two-seater. Was someone training in it?
Dave
The owner?
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:25 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:Zac, would you be able to find out and let me know the source that he is using for the prop blades, and if possible the price.? I also need a set after a mishap.
And, as I said in the start of this topic, if the owner wants to discuss Spitfire flying or landing please let me know and I'll give you my phone number.
If that is the same two seat Spitfire that was in Florida, ex Dick Melton/Charles Church, then I have taxied it once, never got to fly it.
As for "no factory built two seat Spitfires", well yes and no, I think the prototype MK VIIII, might have been built from scratch. All the other factory ones like mine were built as single seaters and then rebuilt or modified after the war, but done by the Supermarine factory. I did not know that there were 29, I know of about 20, and have seen figures around 26.
There are also some two seaters that are not factory original, that is they were converted privately, not by the factory. That seems a lot of work, but they have become more popular now. The first one was the one that Carolyn Grace has now, that her husband Nick, converted from a single seater, and used the lower rear canopy.
I have also seen? a two seater converted by the Russians in the war with the lower rear canopy. I have not seen the aircraft only photos of it.
Of course, the factory ones have full dual controls in the rear, all except starting and radios, so they are two cockpit for training, not just two seaters to give a ride in.
Hello Bill,
A few little corrections needed here.
The prototype two seat Spitfire was a factory conversion of a single seat Mk VIII - MT818.
The 'Grace' two seat Spitfire was a factory conversion Mk IX for the Irish Air Corps, number 162 and your sister ship, that was cleverly further modified in a non structural way to slim the glazed line down.
Nobody has converted a complete Mk IX fuselage to two place although a number of incomplete or front fuselage structures have been 'restored' to the two seat configuration.
PeterA
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:33 pm
Bill
You can contact AvSpecs here:
http://www.warbirdrestoration.co.nz/
They did the repairs and will also have Doug's contact details.
You can contact AvSpecs here:
http://www.warbirdrestoration.co.nz/
They did the repairs and will also have Doug's contact details.
Last edited by DaveM2 on Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:01 am
Peter, when it comes to Spitfires I must defer to my elders, so you are right. Take that! Seriously, I was thinking of Stephen Grey who I am pretty sure converted a two seater back to a single seater.
I thought the MX VIIII was built well before the Mk IX two seaters, so I though it might have been from scratch, wasn't sure so I said "might".
Have you ever flown in one of the cut down two seaters? If so how was the visibility? It looks prettier from the outside, but I'll guess the factory version is better for training or else the factory would not have gone to the trouble to build the larger rear canopy. I twice went up to fly with Carolyn and got weatherd out each time.
Can you give the history of the NZ single in this thread and also where is the Mk VIII two seater?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you two.
Bill
I thought the MX VIIII was built well before the Mk IX two seaters, so I though it might have been from scratch, wasn't sure so I said "might".
Have you ever flown in one of the cut down two seaters? If so how was the visibility? It looks prettier from the outside, but I'll guess the factory version is better for training or else the factory would not have gone to the trouble to build the larger rear canopy. I twice went up to fly with Carolyn and got weatherd out each time.
Can you give the history of the NZ single in this thread and also where is the Mk VIII two seater?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you two.
Bill
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:34 am
Dave M2, thanks for the information on the contact for Avspecs, I have heard of them and seen the good work they do. Perhaps one year I will get to visit down there.
I don't think it is up to me to try to contact the owner. If I knew him or was in contact, I'd just express my sympathy and in that case I am sorry to say that I know what it feels like to see a beautiful Spit sitting on it's nose.
Beyond that, I don't know the owner or those close to him, and I don't think they would welcome an outsider putting his nose into their business.
I wish him/them the best and above all, the important thing is that no one was hurt. We have had some many times in warbirds or other aviation where that is not the outcome.
Bill G
I don't think it is up to me to try to contact the owner. If I knew him or was in contact, I'd just express my sympathy and in that case I am sorry to say that I know what it feels like to see a beautiful Spit sitting on it's nose.
Beyond that, I don't know the owner or those close to him, and I don't think they would welcome an outsider putting his nose into their business.
I wish him/them the best and above all, the important thing is that no one was hurt. We have had some many times in warbirds or other aviation where that is not the outcome.
Bill G
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:29 am
Bill Greenwood wrote:Peter, when it comes to Spitfires I must defer to my elders, so you are right. Take that! Seriously, I was thinking of Stephen Grey who I am pretty sure converted a two seater back to a single seater.
I thought the MX VIIII was built well before the Mk IX two seaters, so I though it might have been from scratch, wasn't sure so I said "might".
Have you ever flown in one of the cut down two seaters? If so how was the visibility? It looks prettier from the outside, but I'll guess the factory version is better for training or else the factory would not have gone to the trouble to build the larger rear canopy. I twice went up to fly with Carolyn and got weatherd out each time.
Can you give the history of the NZ single in this thread and also where is the Mk VIII two seater?
Thanks, and Merry Christmas to you two.
Bill
Hello Bill,
The Mk VIII proto two seater first flew in September 1946. MT818/N32 UK class B reg./G-AIDN/N58JE with Jack Erickson/currently back in the UK being restored to flight for Paul Andrews.
The ex Stephen Grey Mk IX ML417 was indeed a factory conversion to two seater for the Indian Air Force as HS543 later converted back to single place back in the UK in the early 1980's for Stephen.
MH367, the New Zealand two seater. Basically a new build fuselage by Dick Melton in the UK passed on to Harry Stenger in Florida. The front fuselage from the scrap yard wreck of MH367, with serial provenance and firewall data plate, was transferred together with a token amount of fuselage for new owner Peter Godfrey in the US as N367MH. Provenance Fighters Inc then sold the aircraft to the current owner Doug Brooker in NZ.
The works type 508 and 509 two-seaters were aimed at countries re-equipping with surplus Spitfires post WWII. The market was for an advanced trainer with the command pilot and the instructor in the rear cockpit. The Grace/Melton modification is very much an 'air experience' machine with the command pilot in the front cockpit.
Although I have flown in the back of G-AIDN/MT818 and in TE308 a number of times with yourself and the late Don Plumb, I have not flown in a Grace/Melton configured machine.
NIck Grace thought it would be neat for me to fly and log a flight in his ML407 at Eastleigh on 5 March 1986, fifty years to the day of the first flight of the prototype Spitfire from the same airfield. I could hear the aircraft in the circuit...and then I heard the emergency vehicle sirens. A minor mishap but no more flying for a few weeks.
PeterA
Re: Second Mishap for our two seat Spit
Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:42 pm
I have flown ML407 from the back seat with Paul Bonhomme. I think the main difference is that the lower profile rear canopy means the back seat is a lot lower so holding the stick is a bit awkward as the controls are still at the original level. I was certainly porpoising it a bit at the start until I got used to it. Also the view ahead is more limited of course, but no worse that a Yak 52 for example.
I'm glad that the Mark VIII prototype is back in the UK. It is the only Spitfire I know my uncle worked on when he was an inspector at Supermarine. although he was certainly involved with the two-seaters at Hursley Park.
I'm glad that the Mark VIII prototype is back in the UK. It is the only Spitfire I know my uncle worked on when he was an inspector at Supermarine. although he was certainly involved with the two-seaters at Hursley Park.