Are P-51D's overpriced !

Bug_racer · **Joined:** Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:59 pm **Posts:** 41

Just looking through the latest issue of barnstormers and a restored sea fury goes for approx 750k while a p-51d in peices is roughly the same price . A restored P51 is worth 1.5 mil + Ive seen figures as high as 4 mil . Why are they so expensive if they arent a rare warbird ? I can understand an fw-190 or Zero fetching that kind of money because of how rare they are , but a Mustang ?

51fixer · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:08 pm

Bug_racer wrote:

Just looking through the latest issue of barnstormers and a restored sea fury goes for approx 750k while a p-51d in peices is roughly the same price . A restored P51 is worth 1.5 mil + Ive seen figures as high as 4 mil . Why are they so expensive if they arent a rare warbird ? I can understand an fw-190 or Zero fetching that kind of money because of how rare they are , but a Mustang ?

Supply/Demand is a part of it.
P-51s are desirable, more so than a Sea Fury.
The higher prices reflect the amount of work and authenticity put into a restoration.
Rich

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:42 pm

A Fury might outfly a Mustang, but the P-51 has a lot of good features for civilian warbird use. There are lots of other owners to fly with, an active group. I have not flown a Fury, but my guess it that it is harder than a P-51 for landing, and may need longer runways. There are more dual control P-51s and it may be easier to put dual controls in than in a Fury. And very few guys still have the original Centaurus engine, which seems to be good when new, but hard to get parts for.

Of course the Fury does not have the extensive combat history of the Mustang and also there have been a number of Mustang rebuilds over the last 10 years where money and time were lavished on them. Some have had lots of expensive avionics added on, some have gone to great lengths to repleicate the historic way they were done in the past, all adding to the value.

And I suspect that many Americans prefer a U S plane. I have had British people ask me in surprise why I own a Spitfire instead of a Mustang. I'd like to have one, (or more ) of each.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

Bill Greenwood wrote:

I have not flown a Fury, but my guess it that it is harder than a P-51 for landing, and may need longer runways.

It is a carrier based airplane, so it should land fairly slowly. I know Frank Sanders used to land his VERY short at Chino, shorter than any Mustang landing I've seen there, but he was very experienced in the plane after all. I'd be curious to hear from someone who has flown both.

Kyleb · **Posted:** Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:33 pm

There are probably several facets to the value difference and a few of those are:

First, the P-51 actually saw combat in WWII. That adds value.

Second, the P-51 is an American aircraft and commands a premium vs foreign built aircraft if only because most warbird collectors are American.

Third, there is a fairly extensive support network for the P-51. That means that if your P-51 breaks, you have a pretty good chance of getting it back into the air by buying parts (many new ones are available) rather than going on an Easter Egg hunt for NOS parts or commissioning a shop to tool up to build one of a particular component for an unusual aircraft. That means your P-51 may have more up time than other fighters. It also means that you're less likely to get stuck with a very expensive static display item because you can't get a key part.

mgeorge51 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:00 am

I always thought I wanted a Sea Fury until I flew one about 3 years ago.
Cetainly a fast airplane, quite a bit faster then a Mustang but not nearly as many buyers grew up wanting a Sea Fury as those wanting a Mustang.
My thoughts about the Fury was that it was a big airplane and I was told it was difficult to land. I didn't have any trouble with the landing or any of the flying at all, but I absolutely did not like the cockpit. I felt claustrophobic since the sidewalls came up over my shoulders and your feet are elevated above your butt. It was the old Cottonmouth so there is a possibility it was modified since the last owner was quite tall.
I know when a friend of mine had his Fury restored part availability was a huge problem. There is absulutely no parts problems with a P-51.
Engine overhaul and wait time is much worse with the 3350 and the info I have heard is that it is tough to get a good motor. Once again with the Mustang there are several great engine builders and it is fairly easy to obtain a motor that is ready to bolt in with a few phone calls.

But the big issues in my opinion are
1. War history
2. American history
3. The sound of the motor

A2C · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:08 am

Any sort of WW2 US fighter will sell to a similar price as a P-51D. I think the phenomenon has to do with the obsession of owning a fighter driven by the collectors themselves. For example if one collector grabs up a bunch of fighters only, then anything else like bombers and others will be devalued. In other words if someone was obsessed with TBM's the obsession can spread like an illness, and all TBM's could be worth 1 million. There are only maybe 200 TBMs, so it would just take 200 very obsessed collectors. This phenemenon has probably happened with WW2 fighters.

It all has to do with what around 200 very wealthy and obsessed people decide. What if they changed their minds?

EDowning · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:03 am

Mike George wrote:

Quote:

I always thought I wanted a Sea Fury until I flew one about 3 years ago.
Cetainly a fast airplane, quite a bit faster then a Mustang but not nearly as many buyers grew up wanting a Sea Fury as those wanting a Mustang.
My thoughts about the Fury was that it was a big airplane and I was told it was difficult to land. I didn't have any trouble with the landing or any of the flying at all, but I absolutely did not like the cockpit. I felt claustrophobic since the sidewalls came up over my shoulders and your feet are elevated above your butt. It was the old Cottonmouth so there is a possibility it was modified since the last owner was quite tall.
I know when a friend of mine had his Fury restored part availability was a huge problem. There is absulutely no parts problems with a P-51.
Engine overhaul and wait time is much worse with the 3350 and the info I have heard is that it is tough to get a good motor. Once again with the Mustang there are several great engine builders and it is fairly easy to obtain a motor that is ready to bolt in with a few phone calls.

But the big issues in my opinion are
1. War history
2. American history
3. The sound of the motor

I would agree with everything except point # 3. We both know that the round engine sounds better than that little hot water 12. Why, even that little one you have on your Corsair sounds good. The full sized one used on the Skyraider and eventually bolted onto the Sea Fury sounds awesome. Gary Austin used to always tell me "that you can fly a 3350 further than you can ship a merlin" :shock:

Mark Clark · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:04 am

From my view( having sold 3 Mustangs this year and 30 in the last 10 years) the Mustang certainly represents the most well known and popular American WW II fighter. The issues of parts availablity and support are important. The Mustang easily lends itself to the installation of a rear jump seat and dual controls. A number of the other fighters do not have this option. While the Mustang is the most available fighter it continues to command prices in the same range as other American fighters.
In general terms the price of most of the American fighters tend to be higher than the YAKs, Sea Furys and most of the foreign birds due to the history. The Spitfire and Hurricane are the only ones that command prices at the higher levels.
I will stay out of the round vs. inline debate-- they are all the sounds of freedom!

Ztex · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:36 am

Has anyone ever SEEN a Mustang....I mean come on...that alone seals it for me....

:lol:

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:05 am

I would guess that "The Cadillac of the sky" does not come at a Yugo price.
However, when you compare the price of a mustang to, say, a citation or Learjet then the P-51 is a relatively cheap toy.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:00 am

Ztex, they do look nice , especially in the air. Hey, that B/C model looks the best, almost as good as a Spitfire. Seriously, I have always thought the P-51 looked especially good in the air when the gear is up. On the ground it seems a little too thick, too deep from top to bottom with the high bubble canopy of the D especially and the radiator under the middle. I heard some B-17 guys say they looked pretty good to them also, back in the day.
And the Mustang sounds good too, at least from the A model on when they put the Spitfire engine in them. The Fury looks too big on the ground. sort of heavy, and not really the scale of a one person fighter. In the air they look nice, especially the wing plan when banking for a turn. When racing at Reno the Wright sounds pretty good when going all out. It does probably represent a good buy at todays price. Looking back, everything looks good at past prices, I twice came close to making an offer on a Mustang when they were about $400,000. I'd love to have one of each.
There was a time when P-40s seemed to be at the lower end of the fighters. but with some of the high dollar restorations that seems to have passed,

For most people, a Learjet is something you ride in the back of while other people fly you around. It is a mini airliner. A fighter is something you live with, you are involved with the maintenance and you plan the trips with the limits of range and weather, etc. I can guarantee I have never been bored or tempted to fall asleep in a fighter. Almost deafened and cooked in a Mustang in summer, but never bored.

mgeorge51 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:05 am

It is probably a good time to tell my Gary Austin story.
Starts off with Cotton Mouth Sea Fury losing an engine (3350) over my hometown airport. Skip Holm was flying it with the new owner Paul on the way to California from Indiana.
Anyway I offered my help and that of my mechanic hanger etc. as well as my knowledge of the local area. I continued to offer help for the over one year period it took to get a good engine. Not slighting the motor here just what happened.
Anyway the owner offered me a checkout as a reward for helping in the repair.

Gary was the mechanic he hired and this is when Gary received his checkout as well. It was pretty neat time to have Gary, Paul and Neal Anderson all at my house for a couple of days.
Neal had a lot of stories to tell.
Picture of Paul and Neal taken from the back of a T-28

My camera listed the date as 11-10-01

Unfortunately Neal, Gary and Cottonmouth are all gone now, but the stories and pictures are still here.

Bill Greenwood · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:14 am

Giving you guys a chance to checkout in a plane you might not ordinaryaly have done so in , is quite a nice thing to do. There are some nice folks in warbirds. Can you tell us who that owner is or was?

And having flown the Fury, Mike, what is your impression, give us a pirep. I have only ridden in Howard's, no stick time. It is darn fast, noisy on takeoff, and just seems big to me. I felt a little out of size for it.

Do you think it takes more runway for the average pilot than a 51?

You guys are still invited to bring the kids out for some winter times, we have got good snow now.

Bill

Django · **Posted:** Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:03 pm

Gary always gave me a hard time about me desperately wanting a Mustang ride. He said I need to get that one out of the way so I could go up in a REAL airplane... the SeaFury. :lol:

I am mildly obsessed with the Mustangs though for many of the reasons listed above in the historical context. The Mustang won the war. The history books in school told me so.

Since these pics were taken, I've gotten about 7 more Mustangs. So the Wildcat and the tractors had to go up to the attic.

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Are P-51D's overpriced !

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