Do Not give your' trade or skills for free.

[ZRX61]

As it has been said before, Volunteers will always have their place in the warbird industry.

But lets face it, they aren't exactly putting major restoration facilities out of business. .

I just lost a major chunk of money owing to volunteers poaching business...

[Richard Woods]

As it has been said before, Volunteers will always have their place in the warbird industry.

But lets face it, they aren't exactly putting major restoration facilities out of business. When a museum or organization that has volunteers needs something that is complex, they call or go get someone that does it for a living. Without putting down volunteers (I also started as one) whenever I need plugs changed, or something that doesn't require major disassembly to the point that I need someone that knows the little ins-and-outs of doing said procedure, I'll ask some local folks to help out on a weekend. But go and ask your local IA if he'll annual your P-51, spit, Sea fury for free.

Point taken, but think a while about how you went beyond volunteer. I'm pretty sure you didn't just declare to everybody you wanted to be a professional and all of a sudden the knowledge was pumped into your head for all the complex stuff.

I would love to go into working in aviation, but for the moment can't afford to put aside my current job in order to do that. So, I volunteer. Some things I can do some things I can't. I'm not a mechanical idiot, and I've not come across anything particularly complicated on an aeroplane yet, but on the procedural side of things I need to be shown.

As another point, you would be surprised how many museums and organisations are crying out for volunteers particularly here in the UK.

Regards

Ric

[wrenchturner]

I would love to go into working in aviation, but for the moment can't afford to put aside my current job in order to do that. So, I volunteer. Some things I can do some things I can't. I'm not a mechanical idiot, and I've not come across anything particularly complicated on an aeroplane yet, but on the procedural side of things I need to be shown.

Greetings Gent
So you haven't come across anything complicated YET?!?!!!!
Well you as a volunteer have either been given all the grunt work, cleaning panels, putting in a cotter pin here and a cotter pin
over there.
Or the only thing you have had the chance to voluteer to maintain was a "Piper Cub".
Every job I do is complex and challenging, peoples lives are at risk or stake because of the quality of work I do on a daily basis...
Secondary is my A&P license and the liability tied to it.
I can now understand the mentality of a "True" volunteer, you have a care free "LA DEE DA" attitude, hell your job is not on the line.
And that is why there is a differrance between volunteers who work on static/display aircraft and ones that fly.
Sorry to sound so hard/ harsh.
I work in a repair station enviroment and have a co-worker/trainee/apprentice mechanic on the shop floor.
He in many ways is clueless, he lacks the skills and or maturity to be a mechanic.
But every day he works on the aircraft and acts like he has earned the right to be an aircraft mechanic, he has a long way to go...
Once again I'm sorry if I get harsh on this subject but I have no Union looking out for me, no Government looking out for me and
I have to whatch my own back and other fellow mechanics, enough said.
Time for a new thread!!!
Out Here.

[ZRX61]

I would love to go into working in aviation, but for the moment can't afford to put aside my current job in order to do that. So, I volunteer. Some things I can do some things I can't. I'm not a mechanical idiot, and I've not come across anything particularly complicated on an aeroplane yet, but on the procedural side of things I need to be shown.

Greetings Gent
So you haven't come across anything complicated YET?!?!!!!
Well you as a volunteer have either been given all the grunt work, cleaning panels, putting in a cotter pin here and a cotter pin over there.

WTF?? I don't know how or why you did it, but that quote you included was NOT posted by me. Kindly sort it or delete it.

[EDowning]

Wrenchturner wrote

This topic may not be right for posting on the hanger but I felt compelled to do so.
How many "WIXERS" work in an aviation job, Part 91, Part 135 etc.
I work for a small aviation maintenence shop located in the midwest.
We have a very tight budget and we get paid less than other mechs on the airport.
The corporate outfits pay $30.00 plus an hour to their mechs.
Now to put this in a "nut shell", we get calls everyday, from people with "squawks".
"somethings not right with my airplane", what's wrong...
We can't fix it unless we see it, right.
Too many aircraft owners want something for free, and it's getting old.
Try calling a Laywer, plumber, electrician etc.
They all will tell you, it'll be a one hour min charge, why should or should'nt we be the
same...
Now comes the biggest hit, who pays for our maintenence manuals.
The FAA says we have to have "Current" revisions etc.
Who pays for that, or do we just add it to somebodys bill.
Maybe some letter writing to the FAA, AMT magazine, AOPA etc. might do it.
Any comments would help.

After reading this entire thread, I only wish I knew the real names and locations of some of the posters. I would like to make sure I would never hire them to work on one of my warbirds. It would be unlikely anyway as I only use my own employees to work on my airplanes. It's not very convenient as I sometimes have to fly them in if I break down away from home. In emergencies I will use the warbird professionals that I know well.

I personally think that anyone that shows up with a warbird at a general aviation "part 91" shop, such as the one you refer to, gets what they deserve. It's not really the fault of the shop any more than one could blame the local "Firestone" for not being able to properly work on a Maserati or a Ferrari.

The other point that comes to mind here, as an owner, is attitude. I have had a much better experience with an "average" A&P or IA with a great attitude and willingness to learn than with a "gifted, know it all" that makes assumptions about "pilots" and/or "owners".

[Bug_racer]

After reading this entire thread, I only wish I knew the real names and locations of some of the posters. I would like to make sure I would never hire them to work on one of my warbirds. [/quote]


My name is Seb and Im from Sydney .
I wouldnt have a clue on where to start on a warbird , but Im sure with a bit of guidance Id be good at it !

For those who comment that mechanics arent as thorough as aircraft mechanics I think your making a generalised statement !
I take pride in my work and I make sure I go over every nut and bolt , call it paranoia but thats just how I am . I know cars are more forgiving than planes , but at the end of the day a plane is a standard peice of equipment that generally isnt modified . I drive a 500 hp 1.8T over 500 miles to race with a family and then drive back home with minimal tools . I cant really do any testing on the way and have to make sure everything is perfect before I leave . Restoring cars is easier than racing them . I believe working for a race team would be as stressful as working on a plane , if not more . The ultimate is and always will be working on a race plane at Reno . Id love to be an engine mechanic for one of those teams , or better yet , build my own Axis plane with a DB 601 or Jumo 211 Engine

[brucev]

After reading this entire thread, I only wish I knew the real names and locations of some of the posters. I would like to make sure I would never hire them to work on one of my warbirds. It would be unlikely anyway as I only use my own employees to work on my airplanes. It's not very convenient as I sometimes have to fly them in if I break down away from home. In emergencies I will use the warbird professionals that I know well.

I personally think that anyone that shows up with a warbird at a general aviation "part 91" shop, such as the one you refer to, gets what they deserve. It's not really the fault of the shop any more than one could blame the local "Firestone" for not being able to properly work on a Maserati or a Ferrari.

The other point that comes to mind here, as an owner, is attitude. I have had a much better experience with an "average" A&P or IA with a great attitude and willingness to learn than with a "gifted, know it all" that makes assumptions about "pilots" and/or "owners".

you have a decent point, since mechanics outnumbered pilots/owners in this thread the stories of arrogant pilots far outnumbered the stories of arrogant mechanics. No doubt there are just as many know it all mechanics exist as know it all pilots, causing similar problems for owners.

[Bug_racer]

you have a decent point, since mechanics outnumbered pilots/owners in this thread the stories of arrogant pilots far outnumbered the stories of arrogant mechanics. No doubt there are just as many know it all mechanics exist as know it all pilots, causing similar problems for owners.[/quote]


Pilots / drivers seem to get all the glory race days/airshows etc .

How often do you hear about mechanics being named individually at shows/ race days ?
They work the hardest and get the least credit !!!

[ZRX61]

I personally think that anyone that shows up with a warbird at a general aviation "part 91" shop, such as the one you refer to, gets what they deserve. It's not really the fault of the shop any more than one could blame the local "Firestone" for not being able to properly work on a Maserati or a Ferrari.

I wouldn't know where to start at a Part 91 place, I've only ever worked on warbirds (& 1 TriPacer). When I went thru A&P school they expected everyone to go to the airlines, they were a bit miffed when I told them that if I wanted to work on *production crap* I'd get a job at GM....

Many years ago when I did a couple of seasons getting oily with RareBear I heard John Slack say "The pay is nonexistant, but you get all the glory you can handle"

[ZRX61]

Pilots / drivers seem to get all the glory race days/airshows etc .

How often do you hear about mechanics being named individually at shows/ race days ?
They work the hardest and get the least credit !!!

Mechanics get awards at Osh...We have one hanging on the wall at work...

....an award that is, not a mechanic

& on the subject of being a mechanic... anyone else get annoyed when someone refers to you as a "technician"?

[Enemy Ace]

No I do not get annoyed, in todays world the image of a "technician" is someone with a technical education. Aircraft today are not just nuts and bolts, you also have to have knowledge of electronics, some math, chemistry, physics etc. etc. The prevailing image of a "mechanic" is someone who only spends their day tightening nuts and packing bearings in some greasy hole of a garage. That is what I have been told by numerous people (Customers).
If being referred to as a technician has a more positive connotation (Read= $$$) then I'm all for it. What do they call A&P's in the UK? Engineers? even better.

[Holedigger]

I have avoided posting on this one but have been watching it carefully. Many sides to this issue. Good customer relations, risk, and liability, cost of doing business. Being an artist trying to break into a new market, I have probably given away way too much work for free....but to get one' foot in the door...... sometimes you do what you have to do. It is frustrating enough to do work WITH a signed contract and then have the LLC walk away not paying and say they have no liability, the market is down so TOO BAD! The work is out the door, the time and material is gone. Add lawyers to the mix?!? Right! Sue? I've lost enough without padding some lawyers pocket. Then there is the risk of getting a bad name in whatever niche of the market you are in. Business is such a tricky balancing act of compromise. Figuring out just where to draw that line in the sand is the tricky bit.

Throw the concept of volunteers into the mix and you have a mess. Without them, the warbird community would really be in trouble. Folks doing work for free help keep many an old bird up, or museum's doors open. Liability and Safety are big issues. Without skilled professionals working on them, they would all be grounded. The fact that a burned out 50 cent lightbulb can get people killed in your line of work brings to mind the seriousness of the job. Complicated issues indeed. You have to find what works for you. What works for your clientele, and hope there is some overlap there. There is no Black and White ANSWER to the question, only shades of grey.

[ZRX61]

No I do not get annoyed, in todays world the image of a "technician" is someone with a technical education. Aircraft today are not just nuts and bolts, you also have to have knowledge of electronics, some math, chemistry, physics etc. etc.

I don't work on "todays" aircraft tho, when people say *technician* I get an image of some bloke fixing the TV or running "the machine that goes BING!" in a hospital

[ZRX61]

I have avoided posting on this one but have been watching it carefully. Many sides to this issue. Good customer relations, risk, and liability, cost of doing business. Being an artist trying to break into a new market, I have probably given away way too much work for free....but to get one' foot in the door...... sometimes you do what you have to do. It is frustrating enough to do work WITH a signed contract and then have the LLC walk away not paying and say they have no liability, the market is down so TOO BAD! The work is out the door, the time and material is gone. Add lawyers to the mix?!? Right! Sue? I've lost enough without padding some lawyers pocket..

I'ver met more than a few mechanics who point blank refuse to work on aircraft (or even cars etc) owned by lawyers. Which means more work for the rest of us

[brucev]

people who give pedicures and manicures are "nail technicians"

garbage collectors are "sanitation engineers" in some cities

i'd rather be a mechanic