Warbird Information Exchange

Here are a couple of photos from Berlin Airlift by Arthur Pearcy.

Kevin

I'll try to address these items from my limited knowledge. Also, remember that even if the museum at Dayton doesn't have the aircraft it doesn't mean that the museum doesn't have something. Other museums have aircraft on loan from the NMUSAF that are technically part of the collection and may be brought into the main museum in the future if space allows and a replacement or more suitable example for the loaned museum is found.



SALT II. Plain-and-simple. Everything (and I mean everything) had to be cut with only a couple of exceptions to meet the terms of the treaty. This meant that for the USAF to come into compliance anything not already in a museum had to be cut if they wanted to keep the full B-52H fleet going.



I'm not so sure that it was possible. Every KC-135 that had any life left on it has either been converted to a KC-135E, KC-135R, or recon/special use aircraft. Anything with J57's still on it was converted to a testbed or recon variant.



Well, considering that there are still C-9's and C-21's still in service and there are still a few C-27s floating around somewhere, I'm not sure that there's a major need to get them now, especially since the museum doesn't have room.

The NMUSAF does have a B-52G. It is just not at Dayton. It is at Barksdale. B-52G "Nine O Nine". Now will one ever come to Dayton? Maybe, I hope one day, but right now they are doing the right thing and trying to get atleast one of every example and historic examples restored, preserved, and indoors.

The KC-135 is one that the museum wants, but they want the right one. They have a serial number of one they want, and are waiting for it. I don't know the particulars of it, just that there is one they want. They tried to get this airframe before, and it is still being used. Nothing they can really do about that. Just adds to the legend of the museum's future airframe.

The museum is also on the list to get a C-9 and a C-21. Once again there are specific ones they want and we have to wait. Sure we could of had a C-141 earlier, but by waiting we got the "Hanoi Taxi". She as well as the rest of the planes on the ramp are coming indoors very soon. THey may have seen their last winter outside. They maybe spending this winter in the restoration shops getting cleaned up for display in the new building. That is hoped to start soon. Then again they have been saying that for a while. So we will have to see.

I am not sure about the C-27. I don't think there are plans to get one of them, but has it really done much for the USAF yet?

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

CAPFlyer,

Thanks for the input, let me respond to these points.

Regarding the B-52 and the SALT II treaty, this is obviously not an issue for the Pima museum, as they have three B-52s, including a B-52A, B-52D, and B-52G, so adding a combat veteran G model at Dayton would have been possible.

Regarding adding a combat veteran KC-135A, this would have also been possible. I was volunteering at the March Field Museum in December of 1992 when KC-135A 55-3130 was delivered. I believe there are KC-135A aircraft at Dyess, Castle, and Barksdale on display also, so one of these could have been sent to Dayton instead of another test plane.

The USAF C-9 fleet is retired, except for a single VIP transport painted in the blue/gold scheme. All others were sent to AMARG, with the exception of one at Scott AFB on display and one at Andrews. These aircraft returned our hostages from Iran, among other things, one should be in Dayton at the museum. Every C-27 has been removed from USAF service, and many were scrapped at AMARG. The C-21A aircraft are retired from USAF service now as well.

The museum should have an example of each major aircraft type that has served, when practical. The C-21, C-23, C-27 are all small aircraft of modern design that could be stored outside until space becomes available indoors, the museum has employed that technique with all of their aircraft over the years. They've missed the opportunity to get a KC-135A or B-52G, none will ever fly again. The C-9A was a very important aircraft for decades doing medical, humanitarian and VIP transportation duties, I am mystified as to why one wasn't flown to Dayton.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion, hope you don't find my reply too abrasive, not meant to be that way. Also, I do love and appreciate the museum, yet, as a taxpayer, I may occasionally vent a bit when I don't think my taxes are being spent completely wisely on one thing or another.

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Greg Spahr
USAF veteran 1990-1994

mustangdriver, thanks for that info. I was typing up my message when you transmitted that. That all sounds good. I do realize that the NMUSAF does have many of the things I mentioned in their system, in fact there are several B-52G's on display throughout the country that all belong to the museum, hopefully one will make its way here some day.

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Greg Spahr
USAF veteran 1990-1994

Most (if not all) of those aircraft were already in museums or tagged for them when SALT II was signed, so they were taken into account, but I do seem to remember that at least 1 or 2 aircraft that were already at museums or gate guards got scrapped because of SALT. As it is, I'd rather have a B-52D (Big Belly) and a B-52H in the museum as they are more the "definitive" variants of the aircraft that saw serious combat service. The last few G's participated in Desert Storm I, but so did B-52H's and they are still serving now in Iraq and Afghanistan. At least the museum was able to save some of the more well known B-52G nose art panels for generations to see even though the airframes are now gone.



I guess I missed the "combat veteran" status on the KC-135A as your original post just said "operational variant". I'm not sure how many of the original "Combat Veteran" Alpha models are still around, but again, most were converted to other types. There were less than 60 KC-135As that were assigned to AMARG as of 1997 when I have the last complete listing. Every other airframe had been converted. Additionally, since 1997 additional airframes have been converted to KC-135R's so the actual number of remaining KC-135A's may be less now. Of those aircraft, most are very early models and if you want "combat veteran" the list is probably pretty small.



I thought they had more than 1 C-9 still flying. Then again, the C-9C may be the one they want.

As for the C-21A, if they're all retired, that's news to me and to the 375th AW because they show them as still active and even have the C-21 Demonstration listed among the performances for the Airshow in September.

While the C-27A is retired from the USAF inventory, they are not retired completely. At least 4 of the aircraft were loaned or given to the State Department for use in South America, hence my comment. It may be that they want one of those aircraft as they would have a more interesting history, especially since the C-27A's spent most of their lives in Panama.



Not abrasive at all. I think discussing ends up with everyone knowing at least a little more than when they came into the discussion.

I agree about the C-124. Given a choice, a service veteran would likely be more appropriate.
And I know we can't preserve every one. Hey, the Barling Bomber was torched at Wright Field, who'd of thought back then......? I was mostly thinking of the Florence Air and Missile Museum. That A-26 Invader was a combat veteran, with combat damage/repair. Butchered and scrapped. I can think of several more aircraft that experienced a similar fate. The USAF seems to have that Vietnam mentality...
"we had to destroy the village in order to save it" applied to aircraft preservation. If "such and such" museum cannot properly maintain a display aircraft it will be destroyed so that it's appearance will not degrade. The NMUSAF is doing an OUTSTANDING job of preservation with the aircraft that it has. You work (volunteer) at the AF museum. It is very easy to put your heart into these aircraft. Hence, know where I'm coming from?

KDMoo:

Thanks so much for posting those two photos of the C-74 taken during the Berlin airlift. They certainly put the size of the at aircraft in perspective. What an immense airplane!!...especially for the 1940's!

JDV