63 years ago today

[Bill Greenwood]

There is no real Chuck Yeager, if you believe in C Y , where is his original birth certificate?

The Bell X-1 had a robot in the pilot's seat, the rest was photoshop.

By the way, to be truthful he gives a lot of credit to the engineer, can't recall his name.

[Clifford Bossie]

There is no real Chuck Yeager, if you believe in C Y , where is his original birth certificate?

The Bell X-1 had a robot in the pilot's seat, the rest was photoshop.

By the way, to be truthful he gives a lot of credit to the engineer, can't recall his name.

Jack Ridley, who was later killed in the crash of a C-47. From all accounts he was a solid engineer with a very keen mind.

The problem with any claims of earlier Mach+ flights is not just the lack of data, but also how airplane testing is normally done. The first sonic flight of the XS-1 was quite along in the program and even though the entire point was to break the sound barrier the engineers needed solid data prior to that. While we all now know that the F-86 was capable of going sonic the mindset at the time was that it was a radical new airplane with mucg still to be learned. Much basic work was needed before risking the airframe in that area of the unknown.

[Enemy Ace]

I always thought it rather telling that CY left the air force as a 1 star....a great rank for a career and nothing to be ashamed of but if the guy was so great then why didn't he go higher?

[RyanShort1]

I would be interested to see how many people think that GW actually did it first, or how many people just don't like Yeager. It really doesn't matter, as facts are facts. We can't change history because we don't like the people that accomplished something. The X-1 was ready to go for months before GW was flying the XF-86. But the rule was that without the NACA equipment on board, no sound barrier claims would be honored. It was their own rule. There is zero proof that GW did break it, and now on top of that NACA engineers are coming out and saying that there is no way it happened, but people are still not willing to accept the facts. You can't change history because you don't like the person. The guy risked his butt in that X-1, and the USAF team worked hard. Remember by trashing the event you are also taking the accomplishment away from the whole team that worked on the X-1.
You may not like him, but that has nothing to do with the fact he was first. I love the Memphis Belle, and i would love to say it was first to 25 missions. But the TRUTH is that no one is sure who did it first. it is between 2 different B-17's, and a B-24. Records don't match up between group logs, and aircraft logs on any of those aircraft. however it takes nothing away from what the planes and crews did.

Chris,

That's just ridiculous - especially the facts are facts thing. So what if someone COULD (and I'm not saying they can) prove that the Germans actually broke the sound barrier in Germany. Just because NACA wasn't there with recording equipment doesn't prove that it didn't happen. There are educated pilots and engineers that apparently DO believe that Welch broke the sound barrier first. I don't have anything against Yeager myself, but am not willing to stick my head in the sand and say that someone couldn't have broken it before his first officially recorded flight.

Ryan

[mustangdriver]

Ryan my point is it was an NACA rule, it was NACA equipment, and now a NACA pilot claiming he did it without the equipment that his own team said they had to have.

[RyanShort1]

Ryan my point is it was an NACA rule, it was NACA equipment, and now a NACA pilot claiming he did it without the equipment that his own team said they had to have.

And none of that disproves that someone like Welch COULD have really broken the sound barrier beforehand. He just didn't have the equipment to prove it.

Ryan

Last edited by RyanShort1 on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mike furline]

I believe Icarus was the first to break the sound barrier. The heat build up from all that speed is what actually melted his wings, not the sun. He couldn't get that close to the sun because he didn't have the required O2 system installed.

I don't think NACA was around just yet, but it was certified by ΩΦΨΔ.



Regards,
Mike

[andyman64]

oh man this stuff is pricless has any body heard of the word symantics!!!!!!!!! there are some who say it happened in a diving p51!!!!!!!!

[RyanShort1]

I guess what bothers me about it has nothing to do so much with Yeager as it does with the apparently elitist attitude that if it wasn't recorded, then it obviously didn't happen. Of course we all agree that it was the first properly recorded event, and that does not take anything away from CY's accomplishment, but the fact of the matter is that probably any one of a hundred pilots could have done it, he was just the chosen one, and that's great, and a significant honor. If some other guy happened to have done it before him without the proper equipment, then just be honest about it... don't try to say it couldn't have happened or could not have been done, because it possibly could have, and the airframe certainly did break the sound barrier at a later date WITH the proper evidence.

Ryan

[Zachary]

the airframe certainly did break the sound barrier at a later date WITH the proper evidence.
Ryan

I don't think there is any doubt that the airframe did break the sound barrier at a later date, however, there is a pretty strong argument put forth by retired NASA/Air Force engineer Robert Kempel* that the XP-86 as first flown with the GE J35-C-3 could not have broken the sound barrier because the engine was not powerful enough to do the job. I really don't think any of us on WIX are going to prove the case one way or another, and arguing back and forth doesn't change the fact that Welch may have broken the barrier before October 14, and Yeager did break it on that day in 1947.

Zack

* Look him up, he did a lot of work with lifting bodies and is a pretty smart guy

[hurk130]

I read this whole thread and just couldn't keep my opinion to myself anymore.

I have met Yeager 6 times while I lived at Edwards 2000 to 2004. He was cold and distant. He didn't want to have anything to do with anyone except for Joe Engle and David Hartman. Bud Anderson, although being about deaf was very nice and easy to be around. Bob Hoover was my favorite. I saw him at the Point Salinas Airshow. He talked my ear off. He was generous and very funny guy. He seemed to find time for everyone. I met Scott Crossfield during the dedication of Edwards as a national landmark. He was quiet and gentleman like. As I met each one of these people, I had the feeling that they were great men. They were different from others in the crowd.

I also met Armstrong, who was quiet and brilliant but unassuming. Lovell who could be anybody's favorite uncle and Gene Cernan who just struck me as a self promoter. I could be wrong on that one. Very different personalities from each person.

Oh, the point. Yeager was consumed to be the first to break the sound barrier. He timed out the progressively stepped up flights so he would be the one on the flight that broke the sound barrier. He broke a rib the night before and went to the horse vet in Rosemond in the morning to get taped up. He was hurting so bad that he needed a different method for locking the door on the X-1 but he kept it a secret to just about everybody so he would not be taken off the flight and his backup pilot Bob Hoover would take the flight. He jeopardized the whole program for fame. Really enjoyed his celeb status for years afterwards. But he also worked hard and a lot was asked of him that had nothing to do with flying airplanes. Oh, but also wear glasses but not in public. He doesn't want the general public to see him without his eagle eyes.

I will admit that the Air Force hired him for his abilities to deliver and not for his public relations skills. That is the fact.

ah, I am tired of typing.

[mustangdriver]

Ryan, but what you are missing is that the attitude you speak of didn't come from Yeager, it didn't come from the USAF, but it came from NACA. The X-1 was ready for months but NACA held them up by claiming they had the only devices to determine if the sound barrier was broken. One standard will be just fine.

[mustangdriver]

And Ryan in reference to the Germans, in my best Jackie Gleeson voice, "The God damned Germans got nothing to do with it."

[JDK]

I believe Icarus was the first to break the sound barrier. The heat build up from all that speed is what actually melted his wings, not the sun. He couldn't get that close to the sun because he didn't have the required O2 system installed.

I don't think NACA was around just yet, but it was certified by ΩΦΨΔ.

Heh heh heh...

Anyway, I saw this British film called the Sound Barrier, and because it wasn't made in Hollywood, it must be true, right? Apparently you reverse the controls...

I guess what bothers me about it has nothing to do so much with Yeager as it does with the apparently elitist attitude that if it wasn't recorded, then it obviously didn't happen.

No, I dn't think that's the issue, just that the 'record' (i.e. recorded achievement) goes to the Bell and some chap whose name escapes me.

And that said, if we are talking records, the Bell X-1 does not qualify for the internationally recognised FAI record as it did not take off under its own power.

...He broke a rib the night before and went to the horse vet in Rosemond in the morning to get taped up. He was hurting so bad that he needed a different method for locking the door on the X-1 but he kept it a secret to just about everybody so he would not be taken off the flight and his backup pilot Bob Hoover would take the flight. He jeopardized the whole program for fame...

That, I think, is a very good point, and has to be weighed in the balance against the bravery that Mustangdriver is (rightly) ascribing to Yeager. Like a lot of brave me, there's a big drive by ego there, and just personally, I prefer my brave men and heroes to have a degree of modesty and better judgement than Yeager's demonstrated.

I don't think there is any doubt that the airframe did break the sound barrier at a later date, however, there is a pretty strong argument put forth by retired NASA/Air Force engineer Robert Kempel* that the XP-86 as first flown with the GE J35-C-3 could not have broken the sound barrier because the engine was not powerful enough to do the job.

I'd be interested to a reference to that discussion, because as we agree the airframe was capable of going supersonic, so therefore it's simply a question of how much dive and how much power is required. Or is it?

On that note, speed records are usually required to be in level flight and based on two or more reciprocal runs to remove the wind and PE - KE energy conversion elements.

So thinking about it, we should remember that science, engineering and technology depends on quantified, measured and documented data that can be repeated to increase our pool of knowledge and be testable; that makes the F-86 claim of the time an interesting footnote at most, IMHO.

Regards,

[The Inspector]

Chris keeps saying 'NACA didn't' 'NACA wouldn't' remember, if George Welch was flying the XP-86 it was in his capacity as North American Aviation company TEST PILOT and not attached in any way to NACA, 'George, go see what this thing will do' the 86 required a shallow dive to go 1+ and, as a freewheeling (when you still could be one) heeeero type test pilot 'lets go see what this thing will do'.

George was killed, ironically with CY flying chase, in F-100A-1-NA 52-576 while doing a 7 G pullout @ +1.55M on Oct. 12, 1954 and the aircraft broke up under him.

I still insist the bravest guy I ever met is Joe Kittinger, would you climb into a trash can attached to a huge painters drop cloth and go to 107000 feet altitude and then step out?