Bombers in spins

[PbyCat-Guy]

I've been web surfing today, and there's a program on TV and they showed B-17s in spins. Does any one know of any stories of a bomber crew that managed to get into a spin but was able to get out of one and continue flying? Or were all the bombers that ended up in a spin doomed?

[Ztex]

The guy that I know that had personal experience in a spinning B-17 only survived by parachute....
Interesting question.

[rwdfresno]

I guess one of the considerations is what caused the spin. The spins incurred in combat were often because the pilots were incapacitated or the aircraft because uncontrollable due to damage. Under those scenarios recovery would be very unlikely and in many cases impossible. It certainly gives me a uneasy feeling watching combat films with a bomber full of young men losing control. What a scary situation that must have been. Totally disorienting, lots of physical forces trashing you about the inside of the aircraft. Not an easy situation to bail out of.

[muddyboots]

I have nightmares about being stuck in a crashing bomber in a flat spin sometimes. All I can say is there is a reason I went infantry.

[The Inspector]

Me too, I'd rather just not wake up some morning than to sit there, knowing there's nothing that can be done, watching the houses and trees get bigger, and I don't even have time to get another drink.............

[pmahaffey]

http://www.b25.net/pages/spinningb25.html

[tom d. friedman]

i've read numerous accounts where centrifical force literally threw crewmen out of the augering bird by sheer luck!!

[Dan Jones]

There's a story about a cadet that got a Tiger Moth into a flat spin and couldn't get out of it (couldn't bail out). Fortunately it was in the late fall and the airplane went into a Saskatchewan wheat field full of very dense, very tall wheat. The story goes that the damage was surprisingly minimal and the young lad walked away from it (in need of new drawers, I'd expect!).

[Dudley Henriques]

I've been web surfing today, and there's a program on TV and they showed B-17s in spins. Does any one know of any stories of a bomber crew that managed to get into a spin but was able to get out of one and continue flying? Or were all the bombers that ended up in a spin doomed?

Bombers have all the issues involved with spins PLUS additional issues that effect their spin axis.
There isn't actually a "one answer fits all" situation when discussing spins in complex aircraft like a bomber.
The problem is that each spin entry and what happens after that entry involves an extremely complex equation involving gross weight, fuel load and location and balance of that fuel load at the instant of spin entry, and other factors involving what's on board and where it is located in the wings and fuselage.
Less complex aircraft like a fighter are prone to known established spin modes as most have already been discovered and recorded during flight test and military acceptance periods.
With something as large as a bomber, even if that bomber has been spin tested during production flight testing, the numerous ways a bomber can be configured as a spin is entered makes it extremely difficult to pin down exactly where the moments of inertia and the spin axis will end up stabilizing both through the incipient stage and into full auto-rotation.
In other words, a bomber might spin a certain way on Monday and another way on Tuesday. This of course is the case with many complex aircraft, but something the size of a bomber entering into a spin mode might require some excellent piloting technique to effect recovery.
Dudley Henriques

[The Inspector]

It's not just big stuff that is sometimes prevented from spins, years ago a friend in Da big Easy had a YANKEE TR-2 that he taught with. We piled in one day to just go cruise around and I commented on the HUGE DO NOT SPIN THIS AIRCRAFT decal on the center of the instrument panel 'Eh, whazzupwiddat?' and the reply was, ' not enough fin area on this thing, if we started a spin at the altitude of the planet Saturn, we wouldn't have enough altitude to recover' OK then, you drive, I'll look out the window. And isn't the 172 placarded as 'being out of aft CG with only rear seats occupied'? So no funny stuff in the SKYHAWK!

[bipe215]

It's not just big stuff that is sometimes prevented from spins, years ago a friend in Da big Easy had a YANKEE TR-2 that he taught with. We piled in one day to just go cruise around and I commented on the HUGE DO NOT SPIN THIS AIRCRAFT decal on the center of the instrument panel 'Eh, whazzupwiddat?' and the reply was, ' not enough fin area on this thing, if we started a spin at the altitude of the planet Saturn, we wouldn't have enough altitude to recover' OK then, you drive, I'll look out the window. And isn't the 172 placarded as 'being out of aft CG with only rear seats occupied'? So no funny stuff in the SKYHAWK!

Pretty hard to get a Skyhawk into the air with only the rear seats occupied, unless you're Shaq

Steve G

[The Inspector]

Please remember, we are in the time period where people are so stupid and sheeplike we have to put a label on EVERYTHING- 'CAUTION! coffee may be hot' (it damned well better be!) 'cook before eating' (nuthin' I love more than a completely raw, cheap steak to sink my teeth into, chew on that) 'refrigerate after purchase' (Millie! What's up with this gallon of milk we bought last week?) So it just seems natural that in this 'I'll sue you just because I can' day and age, the Lawyers in cahoots with the paralegals who run the Freely Associating A$$hole store can stay out of court. Remeber a few years ago when Gen Av was staring @ being legalized away because of impact deaths caused by idiots flying into cliff faces so CESSANA amongst others convinced the law dogs that installing shoulderbelts would make it better and safer. So that placard warning against slipping into the back seat for a bit more leg room makes the accident the victims problem, not CESSNAS, people have set the cruise control on their motorhomes on the freeways to go back and make a sandwich! there are days when it seems like everyone got off the short bus and got behind the wheel.

[RAMC181]

...I've seen at least one picture of a waist gunner with a line attaching the QAC lying on the floor to the gunners harness. I assume it was there to allow the crewman to crawl out with the parachute still attached if the bomber were in a spin, or even if he were blown out in an explosion. Generally, the QAC was very close by, but unattached as it impeded the gunners during their duties. Wish I could remember where I saw that pic...

These any use?





Two of a series of photos taken to illustrate a chute pack retaining strap developed by guys of the 401BG at Deenethorpe.

All the best,
PB

[tom d. friedman]

i know were talking bomber spins, not to get off track, think of what a chopper going down must do for your pucker factor!!

[RAMC181]

Yes! Paul, you da man! (Where did I see these posted?) I didn't realize it was exclusive to the 401stBG. I assumed it was for use in the circumstances I described earlier, but is this true? do you know if it was ever used in a bailout? I could see someone potentially being hung up by this from the bomb bay structure or interior structure as he drags it through to bailout during a spin...maybe still better than the alternative of being out of reach as one is falling out through the gaping hole in the fuselage.

I'd already posted these photos in the Mickey Ships thread, maybe that's where you saw them.

As far as I can tell, the 401st presented the finished design to Div. HQ, whereupon it was produced for other groups within the 1st Air Div. Quite possibly this was later extended to the rest of the 8AF and elsewhere.

I'll make one up one of these days and see how much of an encumberance it is when connected up.
I wonder whether the theory was that, when possible, you used if to pull the pack to you, then removed it when clipping the pack to the harness.
One reads too many accounts of crewmembers baling out with the pack only attached by one hook, or even tucked under an arm and being clipped on during descent. Sadly it seems on a number of occasions the ripcord was pulled before the pack had actually been attached.