"Silverplate" B-29 Tail Section Identified? w/ pics

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:28 pm

Also something that jumps out at me is the fact that the workmanship on the plate in "Bockscar" is pretty shabby. From everything I've read and heard from those whom are of that generation, they were proud of their work and the workmanship would have shown it by the fact that the plate would have had the numbers lined up properly and everything would have been neatly packed into it's spot. On the "Bockscar" plate, the numbers "fall off" to the right side and the stamps aren't of the kind of quality that Van's has and those that I've seen on other aircraft of the same generation have.

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 387

RareBear wrote:

How prevalent was the use of Phillips-head screws for attaching data plates? Most of the ones I've seen were attached with rivets. The one in Bockscar looks almost like a reproduction. The one from Van's tail section appears to be a much older, embossed plate.

Walt

OMG....are we really going in this direction? :shock:

I assure you that the plate in the tail of "Bockscar" is original, that the stamping and font sizes on it are original and the screws that were used (Phillips head) are the same type that were used on my black tail. And before anyone makes a comment about the plate being sliver with black lines and mine being painted interior green - mine IS silver with black lines....it was probably repainted interior green when the tail turret was removed and the flooring added during conversion to a TB-29.

As for the workmanship of the data plate being shabby, seriously are you kidding me? This was war (as it is right now for those who have forgotten). Yes they took pride in their work, but if one letter or number did not line up they didn't start over. They were cranking these aircraft out daily and even hourly.

Next you're going to tell me that there is a chance that my entire tail or the one on "Bockscar" is a reproduction. Come on....let's focus on the definitive data here. The nomenclature plates are original, and the data stamped on them (albeit not 100% even) is correct and original.

Anyone want to go on a quest and take pictures of other known Hudson built Martin tails with nomenclature plates and post pictures here? We need more data......

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 387

I posted more pictures on the website:
Martin B-29 Tail:
http://www.questmasters.us/B-29_SUPERFORTRESS_1.html
Boeing B-29 Tail:
http://www.questmasters.us/B-29_SUPERFORTRESS_2.html

Still looking to narrow down both of their histories.
Enjoy. - Van

APG85 · **Posted:** Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:52 am

Most data plates that I've seen are pretty rough. Even C-130 plates look a little "hand etched" at times. I think they used a "stamp kit" and put the contract numbers and tail numbers on "free hand" in many instances...

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:13 pm

rarebear,

If correct for time period, the screws would have been REED and PRINCE not PHILLIPS. R&P looks like a Phillips because of the four engagement areas but R&P are deeper and screwdriver bits for them are almost pointed on the tip, not blunted. Phillips head is a late 50's idea and replaced R&P's.
That explains that oddball tip in your toolbox that keeps rounding out the heads on Phillips screws, Did ya ever wonder why old socket and wrench sets always had a 19/32nds in them when nothing you ever worked on was 19/32nds, and now they don't?

UNLESS you ever tore down a FORD FLATHEAD engine, main cap nuts! :lol:

RareBear · **Posted:** Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:36 pm

What's the matter, Van? You can't even respond to an honest question without going off the deep end?

I'm not closely acquainted with the Reed & Prince screws, Inspector, so I didn't look closely enough at the ones on Bockscar to see which they were. I checked into the history of Phillips-head screws before I wrote the question, and they were in use in the early to mid-1940's.

Both data plates have lettering which is part of the manufactured plate and some lettering and symbols which were unique to the particular aircraft and were hand-stamped in the manufacturing process. These I can understand being out of alignment and not really straight. I was merely bringing up the point that the two basic plates were different, and that the Bockscar plate looks a lot like currently available reproduction plates. I don't know if Hudson made all of the B-29 tail sections, and if they didn't, that could explain the data plates being different.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers, Van. Didn't intend to.

Walt

The Inspector · **Posted:** Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:37 pm

GOOGLE reed & prince screws, click, select 5th heading cached http://www.tpub.com/ it's a good primer on what to be looking for particularly on older airframes where over the years it could have everything from R&P to Triwings to torqs (or swastika screws,found on AIRBUS). Triwing very bad, Torqs evil personified-
The 'homegrown' arts and crafts data plate could have been done by some poor guy freezing his butt off @ a mod center somewhere in Kansas in the middle of winter- 'Are ya done Pete?' 'yeah done now give me some hot coffee'

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 387

Inspector,
Reed & prince screws, now that was a good read. I had never heard of these before and that totally makes sense. Thank you for adding that info!!!!

You learn something new everyday!!! Cool. :drink3:

Second Air Force · **Posted:** Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:49 am

The Inspector wrote:

The 'homegrown' arts and crafts data plate could have been done by some poor guy freezing his butt off @ a mod center somewhere in Kansas in the middle of winter-

Just to keep the data going in the right direction, both of the data plates in question were almost certainly stamped at the Hudson factory before the sections were shipped to Omaha. If anyone has any good photos or documents from the Hudson wartime production it might be of help with this project. We're going to attempt to gain access to another Martin-built Superfort in our vicinity in order to have a third example to study, so stay tuned.

Scott

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 387

I've obtained a turret for the silver tail. I've posted pictures on the website:
http://www.questmasters.us/B-29_SUPERFORTRESS_2.html

BTromblay · **Joined:** Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:01 am **Posts:** 50

Hi,
I have been following this thread with interest. Have you had any luck with seeing the data plate in the Enola Gay? A friend of mine was involved in the restoration, I can see if he has any info. Have you also tried to contact the Boeing historical office in Seattle? It might help in your identification, if you had good photos of the tail sections of the Silver Plate airplanes. You might be able to "count the rivets" so to speak, to help identify your tail section. Each tail, though it was fixtured with stamped parts, was still hand built and assembled. So small variances in construction might be detectable.

The data plate is a standard AN7510-1 data plate. They are found in almost all of the WW2 aircraft. As far as the stamping, I agree with you that this is how they were made.

Good luck with your hunt.

Bill

Quest Master · **Joined:** Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:42 pm **Posts:** 387

I have been in contact with the NASM and they have sent me some photos of the exact area where the data plate is mounted. Unfortunately, there is a shadow directly over the area and the plate cannot be viewed. They are VERY reluctant to climb inside the aircraft and take a picture for me due to supposed balance issues of the aircraft i.e. they are afraid of it tipping over. So, we'll stay tuned on this one. As far as the Boeing archives, do you think they would keep contract information for Glenn L. Martin produced "Silverplate" aircraft? I suppose it could be worth a shot. The turret that is pictured on the website (on the link above) will be mounted in the Boeing tail section that I have. I plan on restoring that one back to B-29 configuration. The black painted Martin tail I will leave in it's original paint as a TB-29 (since there are zero left on the planet with the target chutes) and hopefully still trace her down as one of the remaining "Silverplate" aircraft. Stay tuned.

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"Silverplate" B-29 Tail Section Identified? w/ pics

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