Rarest Vintage Aircraft

[Canso42]

Dan I think that aircraft could be described as 'quite a handful'.

[JohnB]

The Lockheed Orion flown by Paul Mantz still exists also, bought later by Swissair and painted to represent their first airplane, it's now in a museum in Switzerland:
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If I could vote for one aircraft to be returned to America...that would be it.


The NASM needs that plane as it looks like they've ignored single-engine airliners...aside from theTWA Northrop the various non-airline Lockheeds.

[airnutz]

I don't think they've been mentioned yet, but what about the Spartan C-2, and NP-1 trainer? Both reside in Tulsa Air and Space Museum. They claim the C-2 is the last one left, but I haven't seen the same claim for the NP-1...tho I thought it was.

[tulsaboy]

Airnutz-

I had a nice long reply done, and the WIX gods ate it. Short version- we normally use language like "one of the only" C2-60s in existence. To the best of my knowledge there are 2, maybe 3 more- including one in Oregon that flies.

The NP-1 is the only complete example. When it was restored, they had remnants of 3, paperwork for 2. Ours got one set of paperwork and the other set went with the leftovers of the restoration to Kentucky. In theory, someone could spend $250k building themselves another $100k airplane- if they were that dumb.

Now, if you can find a Spartan 8W Zeus in a barn, or maybe a C4 or C5, that would be something- none are known to exist.

kevin

[wacoykc]

How about we add a Simplex Red Arrow, St. Louis Streetcar (forget the PT number...maybe 16?), Travel Air Woolroc, General Aristocrat, Thunderbird, Fleet Model 8, Nicholas-Beazley NB-8, Barling, Kari-Keen Sioux Coupe, Sikorsky S-43, American Pilgram, Aeromarine-Klemm, Rearwin Speedster, Lincoln PT-K, Inland Sport, and a Star Cavalier.

[JohnB]

How about we add a St. Louis Streetcar (forget the PT number...maybe 16?).

PT-15. A neat looking plane. But, I have to admit if I ever saw one at a fly-in, I'd assume it was a Stearman.
I asked about them before on this forum and was told a couple survive.
Swanborough & Bowers' United States Military Aircarft since 1909 tells me that it was the last original design biplane submitted to the Army and its civil designation was PT-1W.

[Tiger Tim]

If we were to try and find the single rarest aircraft, I think we'd have to consider how in demand it is. Is there a rare airplane (or perhaps one that no longer exists) that's desired by the masses more than any other? If we're keeping to civil between-the-wars types I dare say the DH.88 Comet could be a contender as five were built, one (and change) survives but a replica was built in the nineties and I believe at least two more replicas had been started, plus a number of static mockups for museums and movies.

-Tim

[airnutz]

Airnutz-

I had a nice long reply done, and the WIX gods ate it. Short version- we normally use language like "one of the only" C2-60s in existence. To the best of my knowledge there are 2, maybe 3 more- including one in Oregon that flies.

Yep, the gods can be hungry at the best worst time. Thanks for the C2 info.

The NP-1 is the only complete example. When it was restored, they had remnants of 3, paperwork for 2. Ours got one set of paperwork and the other set went with the leftovers of the restoration to Kentucky.

Yes, there was a good article on Walter Wright's gathering of NP-1 bits near and far for the resurrection of 3691 in a 1987 issue of "The Vintage Airplane". Although I don't remember the details, there was also some history about how George Goodhead serendipitously retrieved the plans for the NP-1 which now are archived with the EAA museum, IIRC.( Something about Curtiss Wright was throwing out a bunch of stuff and they were in with some of that stuff...I'm probably remembering it wrong. Somewhere I still have the issue, but no tellin where.)

The NP-1 is, I guess outside of the scope of Dan's original intent but the 201 of them trained a lot of fledgling Navy pilots and I reckon the production order was pretty important to Spartan and Tulsa at the time.

In theory, someone could spend $250k building themselves another $100k airplane- if they were that dumb.

Dunno bout dumb, but maybe severely dedicated in wanting the sole flying example to fill out a WW2 Naval hangar.

And thanks for your thread and photos of when the NP-1 returned to Tulsa a couple of years ago, Kevin.

[tulsaboy]

Airnutz-

A couple of things that were in the post that got eaten...

On the C2s- there is one in Oregon that flies, one project that is slowly being rebuilt to fly, owned by Greg Herrick, and one that might just be paperwork owned by Tony Morozowsky. The Morozowsky example, if it exists, would be interesting as it is a one-off where Spartan experimented with installing a Szekely 45 hp engine instead of the Jacobs 60 hp engine. Both were three cylinders. Can you imagine? So as I said, 2, maybe 3. The one in Tulsa is George Goodhead's, and when he restored it he had parts of 3, data plates for 2, only could satisfy the FAA on an ownership trail for 1.

On the NP-1... George was given permission by Spartan to go clean out the attics at the factory before they sold it. From what I understand, he found the C2 plans, the NP-1 plans, and at least some sheets from the C3 set. The only ones that I know are available to the public are the NP-1 plans. The C2 and C3 plans are long-lost. The museum here in Tulsa has a few isolated sheets from the C2 and NP-1 sets that are the original pencil-drawn sheets, including the instrument panel layout for the NP-1 and (I think) a tail assembly for the C2.

And yes, it was very important to Tulsa at the time. W.G. Skelly marketed that thing all over the place, got told no by the Army, and finally got a small yes from the Navy. According to a variety of souces, the workmanship was pretty shoddy- one of the reasons J. Paul Getty went to Tulsa during the war was because he was asked by the Navy to go sort out the problems with NP-1 construction at Spartan. But it was a big deal- Spartan's first military contract (at least with the US military). Getty working things out led to a lot of contracts for parts production, which meant a lot of jobs in this Dust Bowl state at the end of the Depression.

I would love to rebuild the remnants of the other NP-1. It just takes money, right? And yes, I think the only person who would want to do that would either be a Spartan nut or someone needing all three primary biplane trainers used by the Navy. Or, just maybe, the NMNA- they are missing one as well...

You're welcome on the photos. Any more of the NP-1 you need, just ask. I'm there all the time. I am probably going to pull a bunch of the panels off of the airplane Wednesday to let it be displayed a little bare for a while- let people see how they were really constructed.

kevin

[wacoykc]

You can just about be assured the one in Zanesville, Ohio resides in a Manilla envelope along with most of their other airplanes. Some day take a look at all the airplanes registered....54 Wacos to name a few. Out of those, there are maybe actually 6-8 airframes.

[airnutz]

Thanks guys...Sorry Dan for the off-topic sidetrack.

Back to the subject...How about the early Monocoupes up to the 55hp and 65hp Velie's of 1929. First light cabin aircraft to recieve an ATC and by 1929 comprised 10% of registered private aircraft in the U.S.. Survivors scattered about here and there with Mr. Breithoff's bird being the most notable "flyer". Can anyone comment on their purported "friendly" flight qualities?
http://www.goldenageair.org/collection/ ... ocoupe.htm

How about the Monoprep? Any left? Any replicas?

[wacoykc]

Yes, there is still a real Monoprep in existance and there is also a Monocoach. There is also a Monocoupe-built Dart still in existance.

[JohnB]

Are there many early Cessnas around...DC-6, various Airmasters?
And for a civil design they made a lot of, not many T-50/AT-17/UC-78s are flying today.

[wacoykc]

Yes...the are at least two Cessna DC-6's...one I have seen as it is owned by a good friend of mine. There are also several Cessna AW's, a handful of C-34 Airmasters and a number of C-37 Airmasters.

[airnutz]

Yes, there is still a real Monoprep in existance

NC179K at the Airpower Museum in Ottumwa, and according to a former owner, it's the bird that Martin and Osa Johnson learned to fly in...
www.antiqueairfield.com/apm/collection/Monoprep.html

Nice website to wonder around.