Pre-WWII P-40 Aircraft Star - Identified!

[Nathan]

Ok fellas....I have some more information on where this wing star came from - Hawaii! I was recently told by the person that I obtained this wing star from that it was recovered from a salvage yard on Hawaii, but that is as much as is known. So....get out your Pearl, Hickam, Wheeler, Bellows etc. wrecked P-40 pictures fellas and lets see if we can find a match (I know...it's a long shot), but we did identify my P-61 nose here on the WIX a few years ago! Fire away!!!

Im sort of a Pearl Harbor P-40 expert. Sadly there are not many photos of the P-40's and P-36's based on Oahu prior, before, or after dec 7th. I have been searching for photos since 2001. There are only a handful of photos out there. Also note that the aircraft markings at that time where in transition. Plus the fact that you said the red dick was painted out would tell me this piece came off of a P-40 post Dec 7th.

Either way I'd love to have that piece. Take good care of it! That piece would mean A LOT to me.

[Quest Master]

I'll go take another look and shoot some more pictures. Stand by.....

[Quest Master]

Yes, definitely painted out center red circle. Looks like it was hand brushed out.



So, does anyone know when, exactly, the red center was omitted during production of the P-40? I don't mean when was it painted out, but when was the red center omitted during production? These were contracts, which means it was all about $, and even the smallest detail added cost or took away from the final price of each aircraft during a block of production (for example, on the Ford GPW Jeep, omitting the registration number from the rear of the vehicle in 1942 reduced the cost of each vehicle by .25 cents).

So, these are the known facts: This star comes from the underside of the wing of a P-40. That aircraft was produced with the red center in the star and that red center was painted out at some point. I was told that the star came from a salvage yard on Hawaii, but that detail I can not prove at this time....but it may help to prove or disprove some facts. Let me know if you can fill in any more details! I love this stuff!!!

[WIXerGreg]

Were there natural metal P-40's on Hawaii at the time? Or would olive drab paint not have held up to the elements as well as the star's paint? Could it possibly be from a P-36?

[Quest Master]

This star does not have any olive drab paint on it because it is from the underside of the wing with grey surrounding the star. Could it be from a P-36? Hmmmm, did the P-36 and P-40 use the exact same wings? They were both made by Curtiss.

[WIXerGreg]

I'm not an expert, but I believe the only differences between the P-36 and the early P-40's were firewall forward.

[JohnTerrell]

They were quite similar in some ways, though with numerous differences throughout. You can see the underside of the P-36/Hawk-75 wing section here, which is very much the same as the early P-40's shown. However, note how there is no access panel in the location that we have seen on the P-40 wing, on the right-side wingtip under-surface, as the surviving panel has evidence of showing as well.

Right wingtip underside (showing lack of access panel):
http://aircraftwalkarounds.be/Images/Cu ... %2014.html

Left wingtip underside:
http://aircraftwalkarounds.be/Images/Cu ... %2008.html
http://aircraftwalkarounds.be/Images/Cu ... %2009.html

With this evidence, I would say it still is a remnant from a P-40.

[Steve Nelson]

I think the "meatball" was deleted at the factory some time during the P-40E production run. It was definitely gone by the time the F went into production. Since the area your panel came from was virtually the same on all P-40 variants, it could have come from a B/C or E (I suppose it's possible it could have come from a P-40D, but less than 50 of those were made before production switched to the E. I don't know where the Ds served.)

Still an awseome find, and it could very well be a Pearl Harbor survivor! Wouldn't it be incredible if it came from an aircraft that actually got airborne and mixed it up with the Japanese on December 7th? Unfortunately, without and identifying markings or numbers, we'll probably never know.

SN

[shelldrake]

Official changes to USAAC contracts came into place in May 1942, so anything manufactured after that would not have traces of the red meat ball. This piece appears to have had the red centre hand painted over implying it was in operational service as of May 1942. I concour with the underside wing section of the P-40.


SD

[Quest Master]

It would be great if this star came from a P-40 that was present during the December 7th 1941 attack on Hawaii. Here is a photo from the Hawaii Aviation archive of historic photos. It is a P-40 at Hickam Field, Hanger Number 5 taken during 1942. The stars do not have bars and it would appear in close inspection that the red center has been painted out. The nose says "CC MA???".

I am not saying that my star is from this aircraft, but merely providing some additional pictures to this thread. My star was obviously recovered and saved for some reason....maybe it was a historic aircraft....maybe the person who recovered it had a personal tie to the aircraft....or maybe just because it was cool! Stay tuned.

[gemmer]

I think the "meatball" was deleted at the factory some time during the P-40E production run. It was definitely gone by the time the F went into production. Since the area your panel came from was virtually the same on all P-40 variants, it could have come from a B/C or E (I suppose it's possible it could have come from a P-40D, but less than 50 of those were made before production switched to the E. I don't know where the Ds served.)

Still an awseome find, and it could very well be a Pearl Harbor survivor! Wouldn't it be incredible if it came from an aircraft that actually got airborne and mixed it up with the Japanese on December 7th? Unfortunately, without and identifying markings or numbers, we'll probably never know.

SN

Some if not all of the twenty some odd P-40Ds built were sent to Hawaii in early '42. Some were still operational, along with a few Bs and Cs into mid '43. The earliest P-40Fs did have the prewar insignia.

Duane

[gemmer]

It would be great if this star came from a P-40 that was present during the December 7th 1941 attack on Hawaii. Here is a photo from the Hawaii Aviation archive of historic photos. It is a P-40 at Hickam Field, Hanger Number 5 taken during 1942. The stars do not have bars and it would appear in close inspection that the red center has been painted out. The nose says "CC MA???".

I am not saying that my star is from this aircraft, but merely providing some additional pictures to this thread. My star was obviously recovered and saved for some reason....maybe it was a historic aircraft....maybe the person who recovered it had a personal tie to the aircraft....or maybe just because it was cool! Stay tuned.

This undersides of this ship might have been repainted in whole. No U.S. ARMY, as well as the red center.

Duane

[Django]

I sent a pm to PeterA. He's not posting much these days, but I'm sure he could help.

[Julie]

Hello,
I just wanted to get feedback on a few items regarding the star. Please understand that I'm not trying to throw a wrench into the system. I just want to share my thoughts and get your feedback.

I really like the star, but every time I look at it, something just doesn't seem right. For instance, why would anybody take time to remove all the rivets on a damaged airplane part? I don't think I've ever seen this before. In addition, wouldn't it have been easier to leave it "as is." Or, wouldn't it have been pretty difficult to remove all the rivets from a damaged aircraft since some of the rivets would have been tweaked? If nothing else, it seems like an odd practice.

I wanted to insert an image, but I can't seem to do it, so here goes a description. The lines of the star seem very crisp and well defined. The blue circle doesn't look as defined. Why do you think this is? For instance, look at the bottom right side of the circle, is that a bad paint job? Or a bad camera angle? It's just not a crisp circle.

In addition, why are their marks that looks like somebody took a grinder to it? If you look at the upper left of the star, it looks like rivets were removed with a grinder? These marks don't look like marks from a crash. What do you think caused them?

I look forward to your feedback.

[shrike]

Hello,
I just wanted to get feedback on a few items regarding the star. Please understand that I'm not trying to throw a wrench into the system. I just want to share my thoughts and get your feedback.

I really like the star, but every time I look at it, something just doesn't seem right. For instance, why would anybody take time to remove all the rivets on a damaged airplane part? I don't think I've ever seen this before. In addition, wouldn't it have been easier to leave it "as is." Or, wouldn't it have been pretty difficult to remove all the rivets from a damaged aircraft since some of the rivets would have been tweaked? If nothing else, it seems like an odd practice.

No. If the airplane was being repaired, drilling out all of the rivets would be the first step. The intent being to remove the skin, exposing the structure underneath without doing any additional damage. The job probably would have been given to the junior guy in the hangar for rivet drilling practice. That being a handy skill to have<G>

I wanted to insert an image, but I can't seem to do it, so here goes a description. The lines of the star seem very crisp and well defined. The blue circle doesn't look as defined. Why do you think this is? For instance, look at the bottom right side of the circle, is that a bad paint job? Or a bad camera angle? It's just not a crisp circle.

The circle may have been painted with a stencil. For example, the RAF used doped cloth stencils to lay out their roundels. Laying out the star is relatively easy using masking tape. The stencil may leave a blurred line, and the tape a sharper one. From my painting days I would do the white first and mask off the star, but most of the wartime photos I've seen show it in the other order - go figure.

In addition, why are their marks that looks like somebody took a grinder to it? If you look at the upper left of the star, it looks like rivets were removed with a grinder? These marks don't look like marks from a crash. What do you think caused them?

Probably a grinder. Perhaps a few mis-drilled or bent rivets were all that was holding the panel on. Easy enough to grind the head off, or out, to free it up.

I look forward to your feedback.