WIX Editorial Opinion Piece...

[Mark_Pilkington]

My two cents... require real names.... make a separate forum for political discussions and moderators summarily move offending threads there....

gunny


Gunny Im with you on this one, just like in the last thread you brought it up in.Without hiding behind a nickname maybe people will think a little more before posting. Too bad some on hear are afraid that some warbird nut will come stalking/hurt their family, I believe that was the excuse for some in that other thread ( like really you gotta be kidding )

Zane

I also think your editorial is timely and second gunny and David's comments above that requiring people to post under their own name rather than hide behind nick names might cause people to own their behaviour a bit more and think before they hit the enter key.

Moderators need to act quickly and decisively, with warnings and post deletions with stated reasons why, and no debate on the matter, and then suspensions and bans for repeat offenders, I think the KP/Flypast site is moderated quite well when the number of postings is considered.

In regard to politics I would agree that from what I have seen this board cannot successfully debate politics even in an off-topic sub-forum, I was personally dismayed at the dis-respect your own President suffered on his election based simply on race (I couldnt believe the subsequent emails I received effectively endorsing assasination and openly displaying racism to a person purely on his skin colour) and more recently in the Osama thread the need to debate / belittle the "Commander in Chiefs" role in the planning? clearly politics is very polarised and emotional in the US and this is not the place to try and debate it.

The thread should have been locked, and moved to the off-topic area at that time.

In regard to warbird owners disliking their projects discussed, commented on, criticised or complemented, the same debates occur in flying clubs, on the flight line, in the crowd at airshows etc, if someone is dressing up mutton as lamb, ie a P40E morphed into a P40F and it is debated or highlighted so what? if someone has a gawdy painted wildcat? and it gets commented on - so what?, if there are two mustangs on either side of the Atlantic apparantly claiming to be same aircraft and thats raised and questioned-so what? - are we expected to not notice, or not have opinions and question such things?

Warbirders "claim" to be restoring, operating and displaying these "historic" aircraft to honour the history they participated in, and the generation that operated them, and to be doing so for future generations. Yes of course if its their aeroplane and their money, and they are welcome to do with it what they want, but that doesnt give them immunity from others having the right to have valid opinions and debates about it.

Of course such debate should be factual and polite.

Obviously aircraft accidents, incidents and fatalities need to be posted in a very careful manner, and treated with both a seriousness and respect.

And yes without them there would be no warbirds for us to enjoy, and we should obviously be thankful and appreciative for their efforts, but if they dont post here because they dont like such things being debated? then what does the debate need to consist "of" to attract them?

If the rules here are going to be that restorations, museums, operating warbirds and their owners can only be complimented then they should set up their own fanclub websites for those willing to play by the rules, rather than try to cause WIX to become it for them.

If they choose not to post here fair enough, but if the posting rules and moderation is going to simply turn the place into a "fanclub" forum then I for one wont be bothering to view or read here, let alone participate.

Yes I'm a "rivet counter" or what ever else people like "me" may be called.

I'm interested in the history, and the real heritage and artifacts of history, I do enjoy ground up rebuilds and reproductions and enjoy the efforts to bring types back from the dead, not only for static display, but also airworthy operation, but simply think they should be acknowledged and admitted for what they are, not what they purport or pretend to be. I dont see why such aspects cant be debated and admitted.

I have found myself not posting or even reading here as much as I did, note the number of new posts seems to be dropping off, and I cant explain the cause of that, but there is a lot of backbiting going on between people with scores to settle.

Require real names, and ownership of the opinions being presented.

Have strong rules on behaviour and off-topic subjects

Have strong and active moderation that acts openly and transparently

Encourage real and informative debate, and even "dis-agreement" as long as its polite and constructive.

Delete repeat offenders!

regards

Mark Pilkington

[WallyB]

I also think your editorial is timely and second gunny and David's comments above that requiring people to post under their own name rather than hide behind nick names

Can't be done. An IP address points to the server not the individual, and if I need to I can spoof my email address. So unless you ask for some identifier (SSN etc.) that you can verify you have no way of knowing if I'm the real Chuck Yeager or an imposter.

Last edited by WallyB on Fri May 06, 2011 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Franklin]

I also think your editorial is timely and second gunny and David's comments above that requiring people to post under their own name rather than hide behind nick names

Can't be done. An ISP address points to the server not the individual, and if I need to I can spoof my email address. So unless you ask for some identifier (SSN etc.) that you can verify you have no way of knowing if I'm the real Chuck Yeager or an imposter.

Absolutely correct! ... and If I owned this website I wouldn't ever want to open up that can of worms by asking for SSN's. Just ask the WIX lawyer members here.

I don't understand the need for real names anyway, what difference does it make what your real name is. ... It's not the name that defines the man, it's the man who defines the name.

[Jack Cook]

Has one who's been here since before day one ie the Warbirds Worldwide forum I'll say that things have come down a bit and we all has a group
of mature and solid citizens (work with me here) should try and do better.

To me, the proof that many think that WIX is a joke is the thread about the Bearcat
nose over in San Antonio. Someone obviously threw out a red herring just to get a reaction.
Many did react, exactly on cue, and confirmed the reputation.

Yes, that was like shooting fish in a barrell! But, if you're baiting folks and hoping for this end result
then guess what YOU suck has bad has the folks who took the bait!

In other words my mind is already prepared for the possibility of a disagreement of such things
as CY not breaking the sound barrier, PB, NMUSAF, CAF, politics, my dad can beat up your dad, paint
colors, invasion stripes, shark mouths, wheel well color, space aliens, women's breasts etc.

I'd like to see owners/pilots/crew participate more. So many that I know have told me they lurk daily.
But, you better grow a thick skin Nancy cause if you painted the gear door on your Stang green Vlado
will jump all over your ass! I don't tell me the P-51D Marinell is the real mccoy. The original got hit it mid-air
by a 500" bomb and blown to smithereens! I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I sure has h*ll am
not the dullest either

I hate.....all the kiss *ss replys ie cool, nifty, right on!, neat-o, awesome. Put some meat on your words
this isn't pee-wee football!

Oh and Gunny's right. If you're gunny post crap then man up and sign your name.

Last edited by Jack Cook on Thu May 05, 2011 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Jack Cook]

It's not the name that defines the man, it's the man who defines the name.

Simply because when Jet Jockey Superstar #1 gets behind his keyboard he says sh*t that
Elwood J Peabody III would never have the balls to say to someone face to face.

[Nathan]

In regard to warbird owners disliking their projects discussed, commented on, criticised or complemented, the same debates occur in flying clubs, on the flight line, in the crowd at airshows etc, if someone is dressing up mutton as lamb, ie a P40E morphed into a P40F and it is debated or highlighted so what? if someone has a gawdy painted wildcat? and it gets commented on - so what?, if there are two mustangs on either side of the Atlantic apparantly claiming to be same aircraft and thats raised and questioned-so what? - are we expected to not notice, or not have opinions and question such things?

Warbirders "claim" to be restoring, operating and displaying these "historic" aircraft to honour the history they participated in, and the generation that operated them, and to be doing so for future generations. Yes of course if its their aeroplane and their money, and they are welcome to do with it what they want, but that doesnt give them immunity from others having the right to have valid opinions and debates about it.

This is more or less what I was trying to say in my original post.

I also have to note that many people that study aviation history and not so much current warbirds think they should not be flying. Similar passions but with different opinions.

I'm interested in the history, and the real heritage and artifacts of history, I do enjoy ground up rebuilds and reproductions and enjoy the efforts to bring types back from the dead, not only for static display, but also airworthy operation, but simply think they should be acknowledged and admitted for what they are, not what they purport or pretend to be. I dont see why such aspects cant be debated and admitted.

Yes.

[T33driver]

Zane, glad you brought this up. IMO August and DaveM2 cut to the heart of the matter regarding the consistent nature of internet forums in that if they're not vigorously moderated, they'll degenerate into a free-for-all scrum with all the diverse personalities, temperaments, opinions, limitations of web communication. This necessitates moderators to be very proactive, and at times, swift and aggressive in locking, moving or interjecting in threads to maintain a balanced, welcoming environment. Likewise deal with trolls and flamethrowers who can't play nice and/or comply with terms of service and warn them and if necessary ban them after a second or third chance, and not let them reincarnate themselves over and over again with new screen names. With any forum there's a give and take, high and low points. As an owner/operator, I have a unique perspective and knowledge base, but so do the photographers, historians, museum volunteers, enthusiasts, CAF guys, and many more. I wish more owners, pilots and maintainers would contribute but I certainly understand why they don't bother. Sometimes the thread topics are interesting, entertaining and informative and other times, they're inane, boring, sophmoric and full of snarky b.s. but I'm sure not all my posts are "best of show" and aren't everyone's cup of tea so big whoop, we all got bigger things to worry about...I hope...besides, wait another day and there'll be a new, interesting thread or post. Mods, if you want to attract a wider audience, keep putting out regular reminders and appeals for civility and better behavior, but I humbly suggest significantly shortening the leashes, be swifter with warnings and sanctions, and perhaps that'll facilitate a forum that's more inviting to operators, owners and maintainers.

[Mark_Pilkington]

I also think your editorial is timely and second gunny and David's comments above that requiring people to post under their own name rather than hide behind nick names

Can't be done. An ISP address points to the server not the individual, and if I need to I can spoof my email address. So unless you ask for some identifier (SSN etc.) that you can verify you have no way of knowing if I'm the real Chuck Yeager or an imposter.

Yes of course anyone claiming to be Chuck Yeager or even Orville Wright should be considered likely to be not neccessarily the real one, but for the rest of us no-bodies thats not a real excuse not to use our own names.


Yes "all" very good reasons "not" to do it, yet my name is written at the bottom of this reply quite happily and of course it may not be me, it might be an imposter, but that can happen now too, so arguing people "shouldnt" use their real names "incase" someone else uses that same name "fraudulently" doesnt really cut it as far as I can see.

There may well be another USA warbirds forum right now that a "Mark Pilkington" is posting in, claiming "he" is "me", that can be done now, regardless of me using my own name, or calling myself the "MilkyBarKid", that same nick can be fraudulently used as well.

At least when I post as Mark Pilkington, people who know me know its me, and I know my posts have to be owned by me - good or bad. I have posted things that I have rushed, regretted and retracted, thats the risk of "saying" something in "writing" that the "whole world" can "read".

Not speaking to "you" specifically here, but those who post under nick names and get a bit carried away....

Being recognised as "you" is exactly the point, perhaps if the guys in "your" circle of hangar friends could see what "you" are posting under "your" own name "they" might cause "you" to think about what "you" type before "you" hit the enter key ie be "man enough" to really "own" what "you" say, even when someone "fronts" you on it "face to face" - "real life"!

The other aspect is that some posters "seem" to get some dutch courage and post after a beer or other liquid refreshments, or when they may be off "their medicatio"n or partaking in other illicit "substances", and perhaps if they saw some of their posts, and had them brought up to them face to face, they might consider posting on WIX before rather than after those activities.

Again maybe waking up the next day and reading what "you" have written under your "own name" might cause some to be a bit more polite and careful about what they shoot off into WIX.

For better or worse I'm happy to put my name to my opinions and comments, and if I find someone using "my name" to make statements elsewhere claiming to be "me" - I would, and will have to deal with that when it occurs, - but they would be able to do that here and now in anycase ,and to "any of you" currently not using your "own names" and instead using nicks, and certainly do so at any other forum.

If some crazed airplane nut is going to come gunning for me because he doesnt like what I'm saying, I suspect he could PM me or others in such a way to sus out who and where I am even under a nick name.

But nick names offer anonimity and the ability to hide behind that nick name and be a bit bolder because of the protection of identity.

If I was running such a website I would simply require real names, I wouldnt police it with birth certificates or ISP details, simply an honour system that people were willing to abide by,
and those who didnt - wouldnt get in,
and those who abused it - would be booted out for good
- all fairly simple to do.

Regards

the real Mark Pilkington - not the anonomous "MilkyBarKid"

[rwdfresno]

Not to belittle any of the very interesting threads on WIX by those who take the time to post but...plus let's face it, when Gary left us, he took a piece of WIX with him. Gary was the equivalent of the Rock Star lead singer of WIX. WIX without Gary is sort of like Van Halen without David Lee Roth. Sure it is fun, but just not the same. I think there were a lot of folks that came to WIX for the airplanes but stayed for the Diamond Lil thread. I think Taigh's PV thread is another done in a similar spurt and find myself checking back just to see it

I think another point is that many Warbird folk aren't all that social. When you get to know them or 1 on 1 they might be the nicest guy on earth but they aren't out to have the most friends requests on Facebook. Being a Warbird owner, especially of more famous combat types, at times is a bit like being a celebrity (at least in it's own bubble of enthusiasts) They go airshow to airshow, often being asked the same questions over and over for years etc. Some have good days and some have bad days but for someone who isn't a social butterfly by nature isn't going to actively seek out further engagement with enthusiasts on the Internet. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and it doesn't mean they hate WIX or distrust it etc. I know and have known a lot of Warbird folks over the years, several of them I consider geniuses but many of them don't know how to upload their picture to Facebook. The reason is because they don't spend a lot of time in cyberspace.

Ryan

[Craig59]

I haven't read every reply on this subject so, if my suggestions are a repeat, my apologies.

The name of the site is Warbird Information Exchange. Get rid of the extraneous discussion categories and allow the moderators more time to moderate fewer categories. I agree with the comments about the Osama post and other posts which don't have a bloody thing to do with Warbirds. The site is about WARBIRDS. It doesn't need to be everything for everybody.

Modellers Gallery and Aviation Models & Parts Market: There are modelling forum sites - it's redundant here.
Re-Enactors Barracks: Ditto
Military Matters: Double ditto.
Funny Stuff: If it's funny stuff that is not WARBIRD related, what is it doing here?
Off Topic: Again, it's Warbird Information Exchange. If it's not about Warbirds, let them go to an "Off Topic" forum elsewhere.
Military SciFi: What the heck is that and what does it have to do with WARBIRDS?!!!

Return to the core. I think it'll be a much happier, more well managed place.

[AHancock51]

Personally, at my young age, I'm often scared off of posting things here due to some of the political arguments that take place. My generation (high school/college aged) is really interested in preserving history, and recruiting my friends and peers to volunteer with warbirds is somewhat "touchy" because so many things with warplanes seem to turn political. They really want to help too! Leave the politics out of it, and just enjoy preserving history!

- Austin H.

[Mudge]

PS Mudge you did go over the line in the Jesse James thread a few years back.

Jesse James? Don't recall that one (at my age I don't remember what I did yesterday )but if I had gone over the line, I'm sure Scott or a Mod would have let me know about it. They didn't so evidently they were OK with whatever it was. Sorry you weren't.

Mudge the befuddled

[kalamazookid]

Personally, at my young age, I'm often scared off of posting things here due to some of the political arguments that take place. My generation (high school/college aged) is really interested in preserving history, and recruiting my friends and peers to volunteer with warbirds is somewhat "touchy" because so many things with warplanes seem to turn political. They really want to help too! Leave the politics out of it, and just enjoy preserving history!

- Austin H.

Could not agree more. I'm 22 and couldn't possibly be more cynical about politics in organizations. Can't wait to see where I am when I'm as old as some of the people on here

I have no incentive to share substantial information when people are just going to find things to bicker about. Why should I offer my viewpoint if I'm going to be personally attacked? There's a difference between civilly disagreeing with someone and attacking them. If you're going to take the time to construct a comeback, attack the argument with something constructive, not the poster. "That's stupid" and "you're a dumb@ss" are not arguments. Some people here need to learn that.

I'm not going to post my photos from my annual pilgrimage to NMUSAF because of the inevitable bickering about some project that isn't even relevant to the photos I took. Why bother? Threads like that are those moments that make me think, "this is why we can't have nice things." Is it really that hard to stay on topic? If its not relevant, post it somewhere or else. The F-82 is not relevant to a photo of the NMUSAF P-35. Keep it on topic, or start a new one.

In regard to politics I would agree that from what I have seen this board cannot successfully debate politics even in an off-topic sub-forum, I was personally dismayed at the dis-respect your own President suffered on his election based simply on race (I couldnt believe the subsequent emails I received effectively endorsing assasination and openly displaying racism to a person purely on his skin colour) and more recently in the Osama thread the need to debate / belittle the "Commander in Chiefs" role in the planning? clearly politics is very polarised and emotional in the US and this is not the place to try and debate it.

I too have been put-off by many of the borderline and blatantly racist remarks here. I'm honestly baffled that the people who make these comments are allowed to post here. There is no place for that in society, let alone here. Grow up and get out of the 18th century. I guess now will be a good time for me to get off my soapbox and get back to warbirds.

Warbirders "claim" to be restoring, operating and displaying these "historic" aircraft to honour the history they participated in, and the generation that operated them, and to be doing so for future generations. Yes of course if its their aeroplane and their money, and they are welcome to do with it what they want, but that doesnt give them immunity from others having the right to have valid opinions and debates about it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that we act as a public relations outlet for a warbird owner or organization (although there is nothing wrong with a member of an organization using WIX in that way, that's just being smart and using the tools available to reach a broader audience). If an owner or organization needs that, they can make a website or start a marketing campaign. There is a difference between rudeness and criticism. Perhaps instead of saying a paint scheme is "wrong and ugly", a poster could say that their research shows that painting the aircraft this way would be more accurate. There's a big difference between armchair quarterbacking and actual discussion.

Also, I don't think we should assume that all warbird owners are in the movement to preserve history. I quote a local pilot I talked to at a fly-in: "I'm not a historian, I just like to fly it." I think we should recognize that. In many historical areas, there are people who participate just because it's cool, not for their sense of history or duty to preserve it. We may have this ideal of the stoic, selfless preservationist, but that's not how everyone (nor should they be). Like it or not, that needs to be taken into account when critiquing a restoration, paint job, etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many people are generally entrenched in their viewpoints. You can present your side of the argument, but that doesn't mean the "other side" is going to change their mind. Posters need to accept that. It's ok to agree to disagree.

That's all I got. Heat shield is up.

[gunnyperdue]

Guys, this reminds me of the rules for USAF Fighter Squadron Doofer Books... a proud and hilarious tradition....

-Any story has to be at least 10% true

and

-Your have to sign your shot

Other than that you've got to have a thick skin... there is no crying in flying....

Gunny

[T33driver]

Guys, this reminds me of the rules for USAF Fighter Squadron Doofer Books... a proud and hilarious tradition....

-Any story has to be at least 10% true

and

-Your have to sign your shot

Other than that you've got to have a thick skin... there is no crying in flying....

Gunny

Well put Gunny. Our squadron doofer book had ziploc bags with physical evidence in addition to the photos and "after action summaries"...Damm, the more I think about it, I hope it continues to be carefully safeguarded.