Grumman Goose in Southern California?

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

Yup, it was "Warbirdconnection"!

Rajay · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 2:07 pm

Andy Marden wrote:

I saw another Goose at Chino in Jan07. It was dismantled, in one of the hangars to the east of ATC. I was told that it was owned by Roy Mabee, so I guess it was either B-47 or B-128. Does anyone know which one it is?
Regards,
Andy Marden

I was just recently trying to find some more, or really ANY current information about Roy Mabee and the two Gooses registered to him - and this old thread popped up in the search engine.

There were something like 10 classic airplanes (including several Fairchilds and Wacos, a Widgeon, a Lockheed 12A, and Gooses N7281, c/n B-47, and N6DF, c/n B-128) in the FAA Registry under the name "Roy W. Mabee" but the addresses varied all over the Western US and Alaska - both Ketchikan and Anchorage. Are they all the same "Roy W. Mabee"? (*hopefully, no wiseguys out there will answer "Maybe!")

Does anyone know what the story is with Mr. Mabee? What does (or did) he do to be able to afford all of those airplanes?

If, as was reported much earlier in this thread, one of his Gooses is dismantled and in storage, what about the other one? Is it active and flying? If so, where? Any information that would expand or supplement the data in my personal Grumman Goose database would be greatly appreciated. (Thanks!)

Mike · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am **Posts:** 3331

The one recently under restoration in one of the hangars at Chino is now sitting outside Yanks museum, presumably now part of Nichols' collection.

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

This one Mike?

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... bertxt=329

Is it really sitting outside or are you referring to the Albatross?

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... rtxt=7024S

As I recall, there was also one in Yanks' shop that required a thorough structural rebuild and was gutted, although they may have all the parts in storage. Haven't been over there in a while so they may have traded it away.

Mike · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am **Posts:** 3331

That's the one. Still painted all-white, and yes, it's sitting outside on flat gear struts and covered in birdcrap.

Oh, and I do know the difference between a Goose and and Albatross!

It's telling the difference between a Harvard IV and an SNJ where I have difficulties sometimes. :lol:

Rajay · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 7:51 pm

The white Goose at Yanks is c/n B-140, currently registered as N329 - the second Goose to carry that reg. It is easily identified by its unique (as far as I know) window and emergency exit configuration on the right side of the fuselage. Instead of the original 1 small and 2 larger windows (and none in the exit door), it has 1 standard small window and 1 oversize (McKinnon STC "Picture" window) but the oversize window is in a non-standard location, basically between where the two larger windows were originally, AND the emergency exit is non-standard in that unlike the original civilian G-21A Gooses which had a 2-bay emergency exit between Hull Stas. 24 and 26, or the later USN JRF-5 series that had a larger 3-bay exit door mounted from Hull Stas. 23-26, this white Goose has a 4-bay emergency exit door that seems to go from Hull Sta. 22 all the way back to the aft cabin bulkhead at Sta. 26...unlike any other Goose I have ever seen - plus it has a window added in the middle of the emergency exit door, presumably converted in the field just like many post-war commercially-operated Gooses.

The first/original "N329" was c/n B-119 and part of the Avalon Air Transport fleet, which was later reported to have been exported to Indonesia.

Serial no. B-140 (N1530H at the time) was wrecked in Alaska in 1993; it was bought by Richard Probert of Aero Technologies in Long Beach, CA (and son of AAT founder Dick Probert) and re-registered as N329 as an homage to oneof his dad's old airplanes. After Richard died in a car accident several years ago, the repair/restoration of B-140/N329 was completed by Auggie Swanson at Warbird Connection in Chino and eventually sold to Charles Nichols (according to current FAA records) who apparently donated it to YAM.

I'm sorry to hear that it is now suffering outside in the elements.

I revived this old thread on the other hand in order to ask for information about Roy Mabee and the two Gooses he has registered (B-47/N7281 and B-128/N6DF) - one of which (it was not known which) was reported in this thread two years ago as being dismantled and in storage at Chino. Aside from the fact that several classic airplanes are registered to him, I haven't been able to find any information about Roy Mabee online. Well, there was a very old photo of him standing in front of someone else's Lockheed 12A (not his own) taken by Bucky Dawson and posted on an air racing photo forum. Maybe I'll just e-mail ole' Bucky....

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

Mike, I'm certainly not suggesting that you don't know the difference, I'm only surprised that a.) I didn't notice that it had been outside for a long time, and b.) that Yanks would leave it outside after a fresh restoration.

P.S. What's a Harvard IV?

Rajay, I beginning to suspect that you are fond of the type! :wink:

I've seen Roy's plane in one of his hangars. Can't remember if it was last year or 5 years ago though. AFAIK it is mostly assembled or at least complete looking. Are you interested in the identity or something more? If I see the hangar open again I'll go ask. I also know someone that is friendly with him and might also be willing to ask.

The Inspector · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 8:28 pm

www.goosecentral.com

Rajay · **Posted:** Mon May 16, 2011 10:12 pm

BDK if you know someone who has an inside track to Mr. Mabee or his Gooses, yes I would be interested. The Goose community isn't that big to start with and I especially enjoy making new acquaintances within it. In the meantime, I'm mostly interested in simply updating my own personal database of Gooses, especially in regard to actual status. Earlier in this thread (2 years ago!) I listed all of the Gooses "registered" in California south of SFO, but I have no idea of the actual status of most of them. You can't go by the FAA Registry - it for example still lists N2845D (s/n B-112) and that Goose crashed and sank in the Gulf of Alaska in 1982 on its way to SoCal to film the television series Tales of the Gold Monkey - before Universal Studios resorted to using N327 (s/n 1051) for filming the flying sequences.

And yes, I am interested in the type. (Gee, how could you tell?) I've lived and breathed Gooses, especially the McKinnon variants, for more than 5 years now - ever since going to work for Antilles Seaplanes. BTW: what kind of aeronautical engineering do you do in...how did you spell it? Kahleefornia?

Bill, I'm not sure just what you're suggesting in regard to Eddy Haynes' Web site. I am aware of it and I have communicated with Eddy over the years and shared info regarding Gooses. Although he has done a nice job revamping his Web site, I have found that he hasn't spent quite enough time keeping it up-to-date. He also still needs to find a better way to index the columns on his Master List of Gooses - the columns don't line up properly across the rows as far as his info regarding registration, serial number, and owner/identification is concerned. He also doesn't have any details (hyperlinks to individual Web pages) for many of the 345 individual aircraft. And in spite of the info I have already shared with him, he still doesn't quite seem to understand the deal with the McKinnon conversions - real and otherwise. I believe that Eddy once told me that he now lives in Juneau, but he used to live in Ketchikan where Bucky Dawson resides (and ramrods the restoration of G-21A s/n 1157, N88821 for the Tongass Historical Society.)

bdk · **Joined:** Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am **Posts:** 11324

With the new registration rules coming into effect, you should be able to maintain a little more up to date information than 1982!

I'll nose around a bit and see what I can find.

Do you know what kind of Grumman amphib Yanks was working on before they got the restored one?

The Inspector · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 12:17 am

I know you knew about Eddy but didn't know if others on the site ever heard of him, and as he is based in the Great Land I thought he might be more up to speed on Alaska registered G-21's but it sounds like he still has a lot of info, it's just in different boxes in different rooms, I'd figured he'd straighted a lot of it out by now-guess not no matter where you go....there you are!
There's always the Grumman Guidebook, but I think it was last updated by Guttenberg

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 9:38 am

Over the years, I've found numerous errors in both the Grumman Guidebook and Steve Ginter's Grumman Goose -Naval Fighters (wtf?) No. 63 - but to be fair, most of their "errors" were in regard to aftermarket conversions of Gooses such as McKinnon's and from what I have uncovered in my research of actual McKinnon documents and FAA records, even McKinnon did not always seem to know what he was doing when it came to "official" paperwork.

For example, at least two Gooses were eventually registered as "McKinnon" products under his (now our) type certificate 4A24 in spite of the fact that they were not actually "built" by McKinnon but rather someone else. In addition, McKinnon himself converted 2 Gooses, including the installation of 550 shp PT6A-20 engines, and re-registered them as McKinnon models G-21C, serials 1203 and 1204, in spite of the fact that they never conformed to the model G-21C FAA-approved type design. McKinnon claimed that he installed the PT6A-20 engines i/a/w STC SA1320WE simultaneously with the conversion as C models under TC 4A24, Section I, but I have personally inspected one of them - N642, the other, N660PA (ex-CF-BCI) crashed at sea and was lost in 1996 - and N642 did NOT conform to the G-21C master drawing list in other areas besides just the engine installations.

"Real" McKinnon G-21C's were equipped with four 340 hp Lycoming GSO-480-B2D6 piston engines and only 2 were built, serials 1201 and 1202. According to the MDL, a "real" G-21C must have certain structural airframe and landing gear reinforcements to permit its gross weight to be increased all the way up to 12,499 lbs. In addition, McKinnon's mod (STC SA108WE) to enlarge the cabin space in any G-21 by removing the aft cabin bulkhead at Sta. 26 was mandatory on the C model. While some of the structural reinforcements were done on 1203 and 1204, ALL of them were not done (such as doubler ribs added to all of the flap ribs) and the Sta. 26 bulkhead was not removed either, so they did not properly "conform" to the G-21C type design - and they were "certified" to a max gross weight of only 10,500 lbs as a result. However, those two supposed G-21C "Hybrids" as McKinnon called them do seem to have conformed to the G-21E type design even though that model was not approved under TC 4A24 until more than a year after serial nos. 1203 and 1204 were "built" and re-certified.

As they say, "hindsight is 20-20." Things are often clearer and easier to analyze and understand after the passage of time. In this case, a LOT of time!

Still, in the course of my research, I did manage to "meet" and start corresponding with several interesting and knowledgable people who were involved with or contributed to the Grumman Guidebook, such as Matt Rodina, and also Colin Smith at Air-Britain. Steve Ginter, who I was led to believe is still active and living in CA, never responded to my attempts to contact him through his Web site and "update" his info regarding the turbine Goose conversions. I don't know who is this "Guttenberg" of whom you speak....

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 9:44 am

bdk wrote:

With the new registration rules coming into effect, you should be able to maintain a little more up to date information than 1982!

Do you know what kind of Grumman amphib Yanks was working on before they got the restored one?

Even with the new registration requirements, the fact that an aircraft is registered does not really in any way reflect its actual airworthiness status. I'm as much concerned with the actual status and operational history of old Gooses as I am with their ownership.

I have no idea what other Grummans may have been under restoration at YAM recently - it certianly sounds to me like you're much more "on the scene" so if you find out, please tell me!

TheBoy · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 10:34 am

So am I understanding correctly that there could be one or possibly several dormant Goose project at Chino? The current N329 and then possibly two more airframes owned by this Roy Mabee gentleman? We're nearly done with our Cabin WACO project and will be looking for the next project

Rajay · **Posted:** Tue May 17, 2011 11:12 am

Ryan,

Nice résumé! (I'm referring of course to the photo gallery on your Web site - www.pembertonandsons.com)

Although N329 is supposedly "done" - yes, it does appear that there is at least one other Goose project there at Chino, but it doesn't sound like it is dormant. I believe it was "bdk" who said that he had seen it once dismantled but more recently mostly back together and in the process of being completed.

I'm sure that there are other Grumman amphibian projects (if that is your new interest) closer to home.

Also, as we discussed here, Mr. Mabee not only has many classic airplanes registered in his name, but several different addresses as well, from Anaheim, CA all the way to Anchorage, AK. Who knows where all of his aircraft are actually located.

He could very well be just like John McCain - unaware of just how many properties he actually owns or where they are! Maybe he should also "staff out" finding out that information - just like Sen. McCain. (Sorry about the political reference, but that one really had me rolling on the floor during the 2008 Presidential campaign. What a way to identify with the common man!)

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