Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:42 am
Suggested plan of action;
1) the F3F- take the wings and prop off, put it in a panel truck and get it the heck out of there.
2) the A-20, check the oil lines for vapor lock, put fresh fuel and oil in it, and new batteries and fly it out of there with the gear down.
3) same with the P-38. Both of the aircraft have twin engine reliabilty, and have been kept in a hangar. I would feel differently if they had been in outside storage.
4) the TBM Avenger, and anything else with folding wings, get it on a flat bed trailer truck and get on the road today!
I was in Hurricane Hugo in 1989 at St. Croix , USVI. working for the Virgin Island Seaplane Shuttle and I assure you , what the wind doesn't damage, the storm surge and things floating in it will wipe out. We had a 50 sailboat land on top of one of the Frakes turbine Mallards. Another turbine Mallard was in the maintenace hangar. The steel structure of the hangar withstood the winds but as ground equipment slammmed into and through the metal of the hangar it tore all of the exterior off the building.
The poor old G-73T Mallard was left to "fly" back and forth against the steel structure for over 8 hours. The other Mallards were flipped upside down and collected against a concrete wall next to the seaplane base.
They have to get those airplanes out of Galveston!
1) the F3F- take the wings and prop off, put it in a panel truck and get it the heck out of there.
2) the A-20, check the oil lines for vapor lock, put fresh fuel and oil in it, and new batteries and fly it out of there with the gear down.
3) same with the P-38. Both of the aircraft have twin engine reliabilty, and have been kept in a hangar. I would feel differently if they had been in outside storage.
4) the TBM Avenger, and anything else with folding wings, get it on a flat bed trailer truck and get on the road today!
I was in Hurricane Hugo in 1989 at St. Croix , USVI. working for the Virgin Island Seaplane Shuttle and I assure you , what the wind doesn't damage, the storm surge and things floating in it will wipe out. We had a 50 sailboat land on top of one of the Frakes turbine Mallards. Another turbine Mallard was in the maintenace hangar. The steel structure of the hangar withstood the winds but as ground equipment slammmed into and through the metal of the hangar it tore all of the exterior off the building.
The poor old G-73T Mallard was left to "fly" back and forth against the steel structure for over 8 hours. The other Mallards were flipped upside down and collected against a concrete wall next to the seaplane base.
They have to get those airplanes out of Galveston!
Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:12 am
I have started to comment here 3 times & each time I am at a loss for what to say. First, I hope for safety for everyone in harmsway. I will truly be praying for you all. Second, its looking like its really gonna be bad for LSFM. We can only hope that damage will be minimum. Its just a crying shame that more planes could not have been moved out. I am not gonna Monday morning quaterback here about what they should have done, I ain't in their shoes. I just hope some way they can dodge the bullett.
Robbie
Robbie
Last edited by Robbie Stuart on Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:27 am
Tim, Not that its a big deal at this point but I'm showing 6 B-58's survivors. 1. LSFM, 2. USAF Museum, 3. Grissom Air Museum, 4. Octave Chanute Air Museum, 5. Strategic Air & Space Museum and 6. Pima Air & Space Museum. Anyone know of any that were missed?
Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:47 am
Sorry, my joke about only 3 being left was missed.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:21 am
From day one I've been leery about the museum's choice of location in the middle of a known huricane corridor, essentially at sea level (and site of this country's worst disaster on record). Because of these obvious circumstances, I always figured they had some prudent plan for evacuating the majority of their aircraft should a threatening scenario arise. "9 of 40 aircraft evacuated" is a very disappointing number in my unprofessional opinion.
My thoughts go out first for the people at the museum, but there's no doubt that everyone there has had ample warning and absolutely none of them are under any personal threat at this point.
With that understood, my thoughts turn to all of the airworthy planes sitting idle in their hangars (22 of them), all of which have been flown and are apparently still capable of flight. Surely these planes could have been maintained and prepped, ready to fly out within a week's notice of just such an event. Special egress/ingress agreements should have been in place with their insurance providers, and certified pilots maintained on call for the rarer types. I pretty sure most if not all insurance companies would much prefer to cover a limited 2-way trip by any of these planes rather than pay replacement cost when the possibility of destruction is this great.
If this thing hits as a Cat-4 or larger, the P-38, A-20, B-58, Bearcat, PBY, etc are sunk - period. Not to say they can't be rebuilt/restored after the fact, but the entire community learned a hard lesson as we watched the Weeks collection reduced to rubble just a decade ago. There could have been be no greater wakeup call for other coast-based museums than the lessons of Hurricane Andrew.
I've got my fingers crossed that this thing hits some unpopulated area between Galveston and Corpus, saving the museum from the worst of doomsday scenarios. There should be NO EXCUSE from this point on for any coast-based museums to leave priceless, airworthy aircraft sitting idle in the hangar under circumstances like this IMO.
Rant mode off, and thoughts & prayers for the staff and crews.
My thoughts go out first for the people at the museum, but there's no doubt that everyone there has had ample warning and absolutely none of them are under any personal threat at this point.
With that understood, my thoughts turn to all of the airworthy planes sitting idle in their hangars (22 of them), all of which have been flown and are apparently still capable of flight. Surely these planes could have been maintained and prepped, ready to fly out within a week's notice of just such an event. Special egress/ingress agreements should have been in place with their insurance providers, and certified pilots maintained on call for the rarer types. I pretty sure most if not all insurance companies would much prefer to cover a limited 2-way trip by any of these planes rather than pay replacement cost when the possibility of destruction is this great.
If this thing hits as a Cat-4 or larger, the P-38, A-20, B-58, Bearcat, PBY, etc are sunk - period. Not to say they can't be rebuilt/restored after the fact, but the entire community learned a hard lesson as we watched the Weeks collection reduced to rubble just a decade ago. There could have been be no greater wakeup call for other coast-based museums than the lessons of Hurricane Andrew.
I've got my fingers crossed that this thing hits some unpopulated area between Galveston and Corpus, saving the museum from the worst of doomsday scenarios. There should be NO EXCUSE from this point on for any coast-based museums to leave priceless, airworthy aircraft sitting idle in the hangar under circumstances like this IMO.
Rant mode off, and thoughts & prayers for the staff and crews.
Can anything be done?
Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:57 am
Just looked at the list on LSFM.
Geez, A-20G,B-58A, F3F-2, FM-2, F8F-2, PBY-5A, PB4Y-2, PV-2D, LFXVIe Spitfire,TBM-3E, and a P-38L (Putt Putt Maru) are among those locked inside those two buildings awaiting Rita.
Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the POSSIBLE wrath of Rita when it hits on Sat.
Scholes Airport has 6000ft runways. What's the closest military base with C-130's or bigger? Can these aircraft be rescued? Truck out the rest as has been suggested. I think military assistance is needed.
The sea wall may stop some, but Scholes is at the southern tip of the Wall on Galveston Island. Flank is incomplete and exposed.
I think of Weeks Museum in Tamiami in 92 and the Airpark at the Battleship Alabama Memorial in 05 and what type of damage they had.
Only positive is Glad everyone is safe and evacuated.
Prayers to all about to meet this storm in the Gulf Coast.
Geez, A-20G,B-58A, F3F-2, FM-2, F8F-2, PBY-5A, PB4Y-2, PV-2D, LFXVIe Spitfire,TBM-3E, and a P-38L (Putt Putt Maru) are among those locked inside those two buildings awaiting Rita.
Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about the POSSIBLE wrath of Rita when it hits on Sat.
Scholes Airport has 6000ft runways. What's the closest military base with C-130's or bigger? Can these aircraft be rescued? Truck out the rest as has been suggested. I think military assistance is needed.
The sea wall may stop some, but Scholes is at the southern tip of the Wall on Galveston Island. Flank is incomplete and exposed.
I think of Weeks Museum in Tamiami in 92 and the Airpark at the Battleship Alabama Memorial in 05 and what type of damage they had.
Only positive is Glad everyone is safe and evacuated.
Prayers to all about to meet this storm in the Gulf Coast.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:33 pm
Tim, I see now. I read your post before I clicked onto the link which mentioned the 3 remaining B-58's. Is Blake Palmer still on the WIX? I have not seen his name lately.
Last edited by Pat Carry on Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:51 pm
Probably old news at this point - the Ft. Worth show is cancelled.
Also, yes it is a crying shame that the only option they have is to put 'em in a hangar and hope against hope.
Also, yes it is a crying shame that the only option they have is to put 'em in a hangar and hope against hope.
LSFM update
Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:25 pm
Rich Sharpe's Skyraider is in Midland, Tx... The rest of the airplanes have been reportedly flown EAST to New Iberia, La, a place whereas of yesterday, the computer models said the hurricane would not be going.... guess what, hurricanes cannot read..... for those of you not familiar with Louisiana, New Iberia, is a bayou city by Lafayette..... I hope they can get some pilots to those birds and get them out NOW! I hope the birds are not there, but ............ more when I can find out...... The NEW predicted area of landfall is east of Galveston, back toward the golden triangle area of Beaumont, Orange, and Port Arthur.... Alan
Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:42 pm
Well, if they wanted a guaranteed Hurricane free safe place to store those birds for a few months they should give the Wendover Museum a call!!
We have 2 possibly 3 hangars big enough for a B-17 to fit in and while the birds are here we could donate the admission fees to LSFM! Just thinking out loud here; but if anyone here knows the right person to forward this to please do - we'd be happy to help out by keeping them safe and dry!
Tom P.
Historic Wendover Airfield Museum
We have 2 possibly 3 hangars big enough for a B-17 to fit in and while the birds are here we could donate the admission fees to LSFM! Just thinking out loud here; but if anyone here knows the right person to forward this to please do - we'd be happy to help out by keeping them safe and dry!
Tom P.
Historic Wendover Airfield Museum
Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:09 pm
The reaction to just yank wings ands props off and truck out those airframes needs to be tempered with a healthy dose of reality. I've disassembled numerous aircraft from as small as a Christian Eagle to a B-36, and have moved the particular B-58 that LSFM has. It's not as quick and easy as you think. The move of the B-58 numerous years ago from the SAM site to Meacham Field took more than 500 manhours of planning and nearly 6 weeks of prep work by 40 to 50 people and we just moved it 10 miles and in the best of conditions. When it was flown from DM to Carswell, it took over ten days just to weld up the special handling frames so that she could be loaded into a C-5. The ground crew then had to load her, which involved something like another 20 straight hours and over two hundred people.
Face it, there is not a single museum out there that has the time, the equipment, money or the experienced people to try and move out all their static exhibits ahead of a storm like this with the currently available weather forcasting tools.
Face it, there is not a single museum out there that has the time, the equipment, money or the experienced people to try and move out all their static exhibits ahead of a storm like this with the currently available weather forcasting tools.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:39 pm
I just got an update from a friend at LSFM. He said that most of the flyable planes have been relocated. The DC-3 and AT-11 were also moved. The A-20, Spit, Bearcat, F3F, TBM, and P-38 were not relocated.
I just heard that the storm may hit the Beaumont aera but it is such a huge storm.
I am in Auburn, AL in a Stearman trying to run around the backside of the storm to get back to FL. We flew so slow with the headwinds today, we got bugs on the trailing edges.
I also plan to be in Midland next week for the CAF airshow. Let me know if any of you will be there.
I just heard that the storm may hit the Beaumont aera but it is such a huge storm.
I am in Auburn, AL in a Stearman trying to run around the backside of the storm to get back to FL. We flew so slow with the headwinds today, we got bugs on the trailing edges.
I also plan to be in Midland next week for the CAF airshow. Let me know if any of you will be there.
Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:44 pm
GALVESTON - Volunteer pilots from around Texas flew nine vintage
aircraft out of harm's way Wednesday, but 31 other planes had to be left at
the Lone Star Flight Museum as Hurricane Rita continued its approach to
the Texas coast.
Some of the planes that were left are unflyable and others would have
taken too much time to make airworthy, museum President Ralph Royce
said.
At least four more planes could have been flown to safety if he had had
a few more hours, Royce said, but museum employees had to comply with
Wednesday's 6 p.m. deadline for mandatory evacuation.
The museum, founded in 1985, houses more than 40 historically
significant aircraft and 1,500 artifacts, and has some of the few World War II
aircraft still flying.
Eleven volunteer pilots converged on the museum at Scholes
International Airport and flew six planes out late in the morning, including a
World War II-era Boeing/Vega B-17G bomber, Royce said. They returned for a
Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter, a Republic P-47D Thunderbolt fighter and a
1954 Douglas DC-3.
Seven of the planes were flown to New Iberia, La., and two to Karnes
County in South Texas, Royce said.
He said his greatest disappointment was leaving behind a 1943 Grumman
F8F Bearcat fighter that the museum has spent four years restoring.
Also left behind was the airframe of the first U.S. supersonic jet
bomber, a Convair B-58A(TB) Hustler on loan from the Air Force.
The museum's 100,000 square feet of hangar space is on the highest part
of the airport, but still is only 7 to 8 feet above sea level, Royce
said. The hangars are reinforced to withstand 125 mph winds, and a 2 1/2
-foot concrete wall is built around the hangar perimeter to help
withstand a storm surge, he said.
"If a Category 3 (storm) goes in where they are predicting, we'll be
OK," Royce said, referring to predictions that Hurricane Rita would
strike the coast south of Galveston.
aircraft out of harm's way Wednesday, but 31 other planes had to be left at
the Lone Star Flight Museum as Hurricane Rita continued its approach to
the Texas coast.
Some of the planes that were left are unflyable and others would have
taken too much time to make airworthy, museum President Ralph Royce
said.
At least four more planes could have been flown to safety if he had had
a few more hours, Royce said, but museum employees had to comply with
Wednesday's 6 p.m. deadline for mandatory evacuation.
The museum, founded in 1985, houses more than 40 historically
significant aircraft and 1,500 artifacts, and has some of the few World War II
aircraft still flying.
Eleven volunteer pilots converged on the museum at Scholes
International Airport and flew six planes out late in the morning, including a
World War II-era Boeing/Vega B-17G bomber, Royce said. They returned for a
Grumman F6F Hellcat fighter, a Republic P-47D Thunderbolt fighter and a
1954 Douglas DC-3.
Seven of the planes were flown to New Iberia, La., and two to Karnes
County in South Texas, Royce said.
He said his greatest disappointment was leaving behind a 1943 Grumman
F8F Bearcat fighter that the museum has spent four years restoring.
Also left behind was the airframe of the first U.S. supersonic jet
bomber, a Convair B-58A(TB) Hustler on loan from the Air Force.
The museum's 100,000 square feet of hangar space is on the highest part
of the airport, but still is only 7 to 8 feet above sea level, Royce
said. The hangars are reinforced to withstand 125 mph winds, and a 2 1/2
-foot concrete wall is built around the hangar perimeter to help
withstand a storm surge, he said.
"If a Category 3 (storm) goes in where they are predicting, we'll be
OK," Royce said, referring to predictions that Hurricane Rita would
strike the coast south of Galveston.
Rita
Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:09 pm
Hey Chuckster! New Iberia is not my choice of locations to relocate the birds.... If that bad girl hits around Orange, to Lake Charles, Lafayatte and Baton Rouge are gonna get hit really bad.... they have the storm surge side of the blow..... the storm has approximately a 400 mile diameter at this time..... N'Awlins is already getting more rain..... they have the possiblity of flooding again....
Get the birds out to MAF and leave'em! At least for the time being.... Alan
Get the birds out to MAF and leave'em! At least for the time being.... Alan
Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:27 pm
There is one on display at Kelly AFB (saw it last month) and I remember seing one in the weeds at Edwards AFB years ago.Pat Carry wrote:Tim, Not that its a big deal at this point but I'm showing 6 B-58's survivors. 1. LSFM, 2. USAF Museum, 3. Grissom Air Museum, 4. Octave Chanute Air Museum, 5. Strategic Air & Space Museum and 6. Pima Air & Space Museum. Anyone know of any that were missed?