Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:13 am
I think Air Britain MAY have got there information from here
Mustang
http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/ ... f-F-51.htm
Corsair
http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/ ... -FG-1D.htm
Mustang
http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/ ... f-F-51.htm
Corsair
http://aeroflt.users.netlink.co.uk/waf/ ... -FG-1D.htm
Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:31 am
Huh.... that was interesting. It notes that the FAS also had two P-51C's! I never knew that. It would be interesting to know what happened to them.
Cheers. R.
Cheers. R.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:57 am
They didn't have any P-51C's - these serials were adopted upon return of airframes that had been 'exported' illegally in first place and needed a new identity for registration purposes, because the old ID's were 'sensitive', i.e. subject to law-suits.
This applies to 44-11153, 44-10753, 44-10755, 44-11353, 44-13253 and most probably 44-12473
44-10753 went to the RAF under Lend-Lease on 21st July 1944...
44-10755 went to the RAF under Lend-Lease on 29th July 1944...
44-11153 flew with the 352nd FG "Bluenosers" in the ETO and was lost over Germany 2nd November 1944 (MACR #10239) !!!
44-11353 served with the 353rd FG in the ETO and was salvaged at BAD-1 Burtonwood (UK) on 21st September 1945 !
44-13253 was retained at NAA for system tests (=> testbed for tall fin for P-51H version) and met its demise in a crashlanding on 16th January 1951...
44-12473 was delivered to the RAAF as A68-583 in August 1945 and was s.o.c. in December 1947 !
No further comments needed to the above, I assume ?
Martin
This applies to 44-11153, 44-10753, 44-10755, 44-11353, 44-13253 and most probably 44-12473
44-10753 went to the RAF under Lend-Lease on 21st July 1944...
44-10755 went to the RAF under Lend-Lease on 29th July 1944...
44-11153 flew with the 352nd FG "Bluenosers" in the ETO and was lost over Germany 2nd November 1944 (MACR #10239) !!!
44-11353 served with the 353rd FG in the ETO and was salvaged at BAD-1 Burtonwood (UK) on 21st September 1945 !
44-13253 was retained at NAA for system tests (=> testbed for tall fin for P-51H version) and met its demise in a crashlanding on 16th January 1951...
44-12473 was delivered to the RAAF as A68-583 in August 1945 and was s.o.c. in December 1947 !
No further comments needed to the above, I assume ?
Martin
Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:06 am
While John Andrade's book is widely cited as the source of information on several (if not all) of the Latin American air arms in that web-site, Andrade's book data should be taken with a grain of salt...
There are many errors that keep being repeated not only in web-sites but also in books and articles.
Andrade's was the first encompassing book on Latin American Aviation that I purchased oh, about 30 years or so and even then, I was surprised at the amount of data but also at the large number of mistaken information.
Producing a book like Andrade's involves hard work and money, in order to have something that is accurate as the end result.
Using only one book or source as the definitive reference, brings people to make sweeping -and wrong- statements, e.g. stating that Venezuela did not operate P-47s . . .
Amado and Martin, thank you for your input!
Saludos,
Tulio
There are many errors that keep being repeated not only in web-sites but also in books and articles.
Andrade's was the first encompassing book on Latin American Aviation that I purchased oh, about 30 years or so and even then, I was surprised at the amount of data but also at the large number of mistaken information.
Producing a book like Andrade's involves hard work and money, in order to have something that is accurate as the end result.
Using only one book or source as the definitive reference, brings people to make sweeping -and wrong- statements, e.g. stating that Venezuela did not operate P-47s . . .
Amado and Martin, thank you for your input!
Saludos,
Tulio
FAS FG-1Ds
Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:34 pm
FAH 503:
Where does the data that Mr. Bob Beam sold FG-1Ds to El Salvador c. 1957 come from? He is known to try to sell FAS F4U-4s c. 1958 while on its way to Honduras flying FAH 610 but the deal simply did not look attractive to FAS already happy their FG-1Ds.
Also FAS FG-1Ds kept their cockpit ID plates in place unlike the P-51s that had them removed c. 1969 prior to their ferry flight to El Salvador. i.e
XFAS 67070 (FAS 203?) & X FAS 92618 (FAS 617). Pics in 24 Hrs!
DTS: FAV received TF-47s in vast numbers!
Where does the data that Mr. Bob Beam sold FG-1Ds to El Salvador c. 1957 come from? He is known to try to sell FAS F4U-4s c. 1958 while on its way to Honduras flying FAH 610 but the deal simply did not look attractive to FAS already happy their FG-1Ds.
Also FAS FG-1Ds kept their cockpit ID plates in place unlike the P-51s that had them removed c. 1969 prior to their ferry flight to El Salvador. i.e
XFAS 67070 (FAS 203?) & X FAS 92618 (FAS 617). Pics in 24 Hrs!
DTS: FAV received TF-47s in vast numbers!
Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:08 pm
Hi All,
Martin said: “… these serials were adopted upon return of airframes that had been 'exported' illegally in first place and needed a new identity for registration purposes, because the old ID's were 'sensitive', i.e. subject to law-suits”.
Indeed. Honduran intelligence reports indicated that the Salvadoran government was forced to rapidly acquire a number of civilian P-51 Mustangs in the USA, in order to replace the Mustangs and Corsairs lost to hostile and friendly fire, plus two Mustangs which collided during take-off.
An unknown number of Mustangs were flown to El Salvador during the hostilities (July 14-18, 1969) and the remaining aircraft had been delivered by the end of July or early August. At least seven of the nineteen Mustangs received in July-August had no identification plates, according to the book “Historia de la Fuerza Aérea Salvadorena”. Other sources claim a total of fourteen Mustangs were received by the FAS -including the original six Cavaliers.
I am pretty sure Martin may have more credible information on this matter.
Some sources suggest several US citizens who tried to smuggle aircraft to El Salvador were arrested, although most pilots managed to deliver the goods, except for the one that ditched in Mexican coastal waters.
I was able to obtain from Honduran intelligence reports, the names of a few “hired pilots“ (ex-USAF, ex-RAF, and possibly ex-RCAF) who flew some of the Mustang sorties shortly after the war (non-combat).
Cheers,
Amado
Martin said: “… these serials were adopted upon return of airframes that had been 'exported' illegally in first place and needed a new identity for registration purposes, because the old ID's were 'sensitive', i.e. subject to law-suits”.
Indeed. Honduran intelligence reports indicated that the Salvadoran government was forced to rapidly acquire a number of civilian P-51 Mustangs in the USA, in order to replace the Mustangs and Corsairs lost to hostile and friendly fire, plus two Mustangs which collided during take-off.
An unknown number of Mustangs were flown to El Salvador during the hostilities (July 14-18, 1969) and the remaining aircraft had been delivered by the end of July or early August. At least seven of the nineteen Mustangs received in July-August had no identification plates, according to the book “Historia de la Fuerza Aérea Salvadorena”. Other sources claim a total of fourteen Mustangs were received by the FAS -including the original six Cavaliers.
I am pretty sure Martin may have more credible information on this matter.
Some sources suggest several US citizens who tried to smuggle aircraft to El Salvador were arrested, although most pilots managed to deliver the goods, except for the one that ditched in Mexican coastal waters.
I was able to obtain from Honduran intelligence reports, the names of a few “hired pilots“ (ex-USAF, ex-RAF, and possibly ex-RCAF) who flew some of the Mustang sorties shortly after the war (non-combat).
Cheers,
Amado
Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:14 pm
RCAF or CAF????Amado Aguiluz F. wrote:...the names of a few “hired pilots“ (ex-USAF, ex-RAF, and possibly ex-RCAF) who flew some of the Mustang sorties shortly after the war.
Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:44 pm
bdk wrote:
"RCAF or CAF????"
RCAF: Royal Canadian Air Force.
Cheers,
Amado
"RCAF or CAF????"
RCAF: Royal Canadian Air Force.
Cheers,
Amado
Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:33 am
Back in 1981, at the CAF Airsho's Survivors Dinner, I sat at the same table with a gentleman from New Zealand. I did not -shame on me- write his name.
He told me that he had flown P-51s in El Salvador during the 1969 conflict.
Years later, someone else also told me a tale regarding the FBI coming hot on their heels after someone told the fibbers that these guys were ready to export A-26s to El Salvador. He says that they never seized any airplane, but failed to see the BMGs that they had stored in the hangar's rafters.
A lot has been said regarding some CAF pilots flying down south, and I believe that enough time has elapsed and any statute of limitations must have expired by now.... so how come, we don't hear more about these gentlemen and their activities there?
Saludos,
Tulio
He told me that he had flown P-51s in El Salvador during the 1969 conflict.
Years later, someone else also told me a tale regarding the FBI coming hot on their heels after someone told the fibbers that these guys were ready to export A-26s to El Salvador. He says that they never seized any airplane, but failed to see the BMGs that they had stored in the hangar's rafters.
A lot has been said regarding some CAF pilots flying down south, and I believe that enough time has elapsed and any statute of limitations must have expired by now.... so how come, we don't hear more about these gentlemen and their activities there?
Saludos,
Tulio
Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:15 am
Tulio wrote:Back in 1981, at the CAF Airsho's Survivors Dinner, I sat at the same table with a gentleman from New Zealand. I did not -shame on me- write his name.
He told me that he had flown P-51s in El Salvador during the 1969 conflict.
Years later, someone else also told me a tale regarding the FBI coming hot on their heels after someone told the fibbers that these guys were ready to export A-26s to El Salvador. He says that they never seized any airplane, but failed to see the BMGs that they had stored in the hangar's rafters.
A lot has been said regarding some CAF pilots flying down south, and I believe that enough time has elapsed and any statute of limitations must have expired by now.... so how come, we don't hear more about these gentlemen and their activities there?
Saludos,
Tulio
Not necessarily a CAF pilot, but when looking at the photos from El Salvador in Dienst/Hagedorn's Latin American book, there is a photo showing an American (now deceased) 51 driver who also owned a couple of Mustangs over the years.
I was in touch with a gentleman last year who happened to know one of the owners who sold his steed "down south" in 1969, and he said that the deal was concluded in the kitchen. The owner got a bag filled with cash, and the Salvadorian AF pilot went out to the airport, fired up the plane, gunned down the runway, and added another "wild horse" to his country's Air Force!
One of the guys who were involved in smuggling a/c down there is still alive (was a couple of years ago!), and lives in the mid-west. Don't think he's owned a warbird for 25+ years though! Wonder if he'd be interested in being interviewed about his involvement....
T J
Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:18 am
Amado Aguiluz F. wrote:I was able to obtain from Honduran intelligence reports, the names of a few “hired pilots“ (ex-USAF, ex-RAF, and possibly ex-RCAF) who flew some of the Mustang sorties shortly after the war (non-combat).
Cheers,
Amado
Have you ever tried to get hold these guys, to see if they're willing to talk about their past?
T J
Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:38 am
Is it just me or has Mr. Mears been strangely absent from this thread?
Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:32 am
We need to interview those guys!!!
It doesn't matter if the interview is not published right away, but guys, this little war took place 36 years ago, and no one is getting any younger.
We need to gather these guys' memories of the events, their involvement, even if it was periferal because in 5, 10 or 15 years or even today, it could prove to be too late.
We can still cross-reference and document what they tell us, and save it for the time when they allow us to publish their information.
Saludos!
Tulio
It doesn't matter if the interview is not published right away, but guys, this little war took place 36 years ago, and no one is getting any younger.
We need to gather these guys' memories of the events, their involvement, even if it was periferal because in 5, 10 or 15 years or even today, it could prove to be too late.
We can still cross-reference and document what they tell us, and save it for the time when they allow us to publish their information.
Saludos!
Tulio
Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:34 pm
Hmm..I was never interested about what these intel guys said about the salvadoran aircraft,but I know one of them that was involved in the subject.The problem,though,is that I have no plans to travel in the near future,so the only thing is to hope that this guy is alive the next time I see him 'cause as far as I know,most of the other involved are deceased.
FAS Pilots
Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:03 pm
1969 Expeditionary FAS Pilots:
Was the guy in the midwest go by the initials T.R by anychance? I'm sure R. Mears can give us at least a hint?
Also, the Oct-1973 isssue of Air Classics or Air Progress Mags contains an article about the adventures of an ukn American c. 1969 ferrying FAS P-51s and flying a couple of sorties over the border against FAH F4Us. The name of the article "Air War Over Honduras" author Ukn.
Lots of us would like to know/ get in touch with this person if he is still alive. I hope he is...!
Was the guy in the midwest go by the initials T.R by anychance? I'm sure R. Mears can give us at least a hint?
Also, the Oct-1973 isssue of Air Classics or Air Progress Mags contains an article about the adventures of an ukn American c. 1969 ferrying FAS P-51s and flying a couple of sorties over the border against FAH F4Us. The name of the article "Air War Over Honduras" author Ukn.
Lots of us would like to know/ get in touch with this person if he is still alive. I hope he is...!