In Light of the Hurricains should we....................

[sdennison]

Is this something that EAA could help with? Who would possess a list of all rated pilots and the aircraft they are certified to fly? If we just had a list of entrants to the fly-in and the aircraft they flew, it might be a start to contact these guys and see who is willing to do what.

Other option is for everyone who reads this board, contact all the pilots they know and perhaps collectively we can create the "gene pool" necessary.

[RyanShort1]

The list idea sounds good, but it would seem to me that it would be better for individual groups to make the effort to find other local people who were interested and folks that you could trust, and train them carefully so that you had people that you knew and trusted, that were capable of helping out. My flight instructor has been trying to get some folks to do that for years.

Maybe there could even be some sort of affordable universal warbird ferry pilot training program teaching the basics. I know that there are willing pilots out there, the issue is mostly the money for some of us to get to that point. Maybe starting with some 25-30 year olds who show promising flight skills, potential for future investment into the warbird community, and a love of the history, so they're not just flying expensive toys, but teaching the history behind them.

It would seem to me that if you would check these persons out, and choose carefully, you will find that the money you might invest into their future, would be well spent and a good investment for the future of the history we all love.

Ryan

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

Hi All,

The idea, while a very good one, has many pitfalls as probably discussed here already. Not withstanding the idea of the logistics involved in obtaining pilots who are type rated and above all CURRENT in the models that would be potentially ferried away from their bases. Then the idea that IF some of them are in the middle of a maintenance cycle, then it becomes the idea of getting guys, certified A&P's, to get there to get the planes ready to go in the first place. I mean...lets face it, these old girls are rare and to get them ready at a moments notice would be a huge undertaking. Engine and control system checks....potential gear swings..or gear down ferry permits with the gear locked or pinned down.

While I have not taken the time to read each individual posting here, it seems that potential storage facilities are within the realm of reality.

Now, I am no pilot myself, but from a mechanic's point of view...getting things ready for even a ferry flight is a rush job. Then assuring the FAA that the aircraft in question can be accepted for that ferry flight is one of those "marginal" things at best. Even with the best of intentions or pilots.

I apologise if I am coming at this with a negative slant, but as a person who has kinda been there done that with ferry permits....the guy that signs his name holds his breath until she get's to her destination safely. I mean...I love the idea....but how do you logistically get it done ? And done right.

Paul

[systemofadown1162]

I agree, it sounds like you could pull it off but one question. Who would pay for all that freaking gas? And the person who owns the bird might not like strangers flying his plane. Other than that it sounds great and I would volunteer if I could.

[sdennison]

Guys, I think we are beginning to globalize abit too much. We are not moving every warbird in the country at the same tiem. We are looking at a response to a relatively small area within a fairly short time frame where the alternative is to potentially lose these aircraft.

I would expect that any owner would be the first to get his plane out of the way. If he had multiple planes, it would be nice to have access to other qualified pilots to help get their equipment out. Obviously, those not airworthy or with engines off etc. are going to potentially be damaged or lost.

The topic here, as I understand it is how to get easily moved warbirds to safety. Bear in mind, during the war, pilots got a manuala and a pat on the ass to fly the next plane type. These were 20 year old kids for the most part. There are plenty of well qualified warbird pilots both single and muti-engine rated who could perform these tasks.

What we are looking at is starting with a list of willing and qualified pilots. Then we look for how to fund (by gas) etc. and create a response plan.

Keep your focus narrow and see how we can accomplish this goal.

[Glenn Wegman]

Hi All,

Now, I am no pilot myself, but from a mechanic's point of view...getting things ready for even a ferry flight is a rush job. Then assuring the FAA that the aircraft in question can be accepted for that ferry flight is one of those "marginal" things at best. Even with the best of intentions or pilots.

Paul

I was stuck with a Mustang in my hangar and another at a nearby airport last year for two Hurricanes in a row and it was no fun! First of all, the projected landfall as of three days out was somewhere between Key West and the Carolina Coast which really narrows it down. Second of all, the one in my hangar is based in North Florida, so which hangar is it safest in at that point? The other local Mustang owners wife was in the Hospital, and to his credit, he said he didn't care about the Mustang at that point, his wife was his main concern. I had to prepare my home and hangar as well as try to get the airplane in my hangar ferryable. I spent over a day getting my house prepared and another on my hangar. People were evacuating and all of the highways were jammed. The closest place to safely take the airplanes would be West Georgia.......but there are two of them and one of me, and then how do I get back home before the storm? It's a twelve hour drive.........the Airports will be closed by then so the Airlines are out. What do you do? They stayed where they were. Both airplanes stayed in the same places for the second Hurricane since what are the chances of getting two direct hits in two weeks right? Both Hurricanes went right over my home and hangar, eye and all, what are the chances of that? Luckily my hangar was undamaged but the roof came off of the other hangar at the other airport but that Mustang was luckily also undamaged.

To reply to Paul's statement:

I contacted the FAA and they would Fax me a Ferry Permit within an hour with basically no questions asked due to the circumstances but they shut down a couple of days before the storm since they had homes and families to take care of too, so now what? I contacted the Insurance Underwriter and explained the situation and they said don't even think about it. Just get in it and move it regardless of weather it's signed off or has a Ferry Permit. They would much rather have it flown than sit there through a Hurricane and even offered to pay the moving expenses so that answers a couple more questions.

The best answer seems to be what Doug did. Load up pilots from another area out of the path of the storm and fly them in to pick up the airplanes and move them to a safer location. The local pilots will be too busy preparing their homes and families to worry about moving airplanes a couple of hunderd miles away and then trying to get back in time to take care of their families.

It's easy to sit back and say "gee, just fly it out" but it's not that easy at all as you don't really know where it's going until a couple of days out and then it's too late. The only other option is just get in them and move them to West Tennessee for Hurricane season, but how sensible is that?

Glenn

[Aircraft Mech Paul]

To reply to Paul's statement:

I contacted the FAA and they would Fax me a Ferry Permit within an hour with basically no questions asked due to the circumstances but they shut down a couple of days before the storm since they had homes and families to take care of too, so now what? I contacted the Insurance Underwriter and explained the situation and they said don't even think about it. Just get in it and move it regardless of weather it's signed off or has a Ferry Permit. They would much rather have it flown than sit there through a Hurricane and even offered to pay the moving expenses so that answers a couple more questions.

The best answer seems to be what Doug did. Load up pilots from another area out of the path of the storm and fly them in to pick up the airplanes and move them to a safer location. The local pilots will be too busy preparing their homes and families to worry about moving airplanes a couple of hunderd miles away and then trying to get back in time to take care of their families.

It's easy to sit back and say "gee, just fly it out" but it's not that easy at all as you don't really know where it's going until a couple of days out and then it's too late. The only other option is just get in them and move them to West Tennessee for Hurricane season, but how sensible is that?

Glenn


Glenn,

And for that matter all of us engaged in this debate. I apologise if I overstated the intentions in my posting and for any misgivings I may have generated. I am by profession an A&P and my training dictates my course of actions. Always with the best of intentions I assure you. I liked the idea that the FAA was willing to get the ferry permit done ASAP...and the fact that the insurance folks basically said.."if the thing looks "complete"...get her outta there..." That to me shows massive co-operation with both the owner/operator and the contributiing forces of the insurance and FAA. Bravo Sir...

Sir, as I have stated many times in other postings...aircraft and machinery can be repaired, people cannot be so easily be repaired or for that matter replaced in our lives. Wives, family, loved ones come first and foremost. I applaud your attempts at trying to do "too much". But in the end result it worked out for you and I can, at least say for myself, I am most greatful that I have this opportunity to speak to you on the subject.

I guess from my point of view I was trying to say that IF something of a nature such as what the Gulf Coast has experianced the people come first...if the "things" can be saved at all...I agree...try. I was looking at the broad scope of evacuatiing aircraft on the scale of the Lone Star museum. Not as a single aircraft enitity that are scattered around the country.

Mr. Dennison, in the previous posting hit the nail on the head far better than I. And I agree with him. Perhaps that is the proper avenue to be explored here. Forgive me for the overstatements.

Respectfully,

Paul

[skymstr02]

What have you people been smoking? Those aiplanes at Lone Star are not public property. You are taking it upon yourselves to commandeer private property. I own a warbird and I personally know the owner of the Lone Star Flight Museum, and the director of the museum. Neither of them want just anybody from a pool working on or flying the airplanes.

Those airplanes are owned by an entity that controls the use and the operators of the equipment. You just can't hoist an airplane on a trailer and run up the road to safety. For one thing, it won't clear many overpasses. I took the LSFM Bearcat apart in Quantico, VA, and its no small task. It took several people four days to get it road ready.

There is a difference between a flyable and an airworthy airplane. It not just a matter of servicing the fluids and doing a walk around inspection. Do you know of a pilot who is current in A-20's? Thats one reason it isn't flyable. Do you know of a pilot who will take the financial responsibility for the last flyable A-20? Lloyds of London won't write that one for less that $1M. The F3F-2 hasn't been in the air, except on jacks, since 2000. Are you willing to jeopardize the aircraft and your life that it'll be OK?

The Museum owes Doug and the crew from Cavanaugh a huge thanks, but the relocation was co-ordinated thru the museum director.

Vintage aircraft operators are a small community. When one has a problem, the others ask what needs to be done? How can I help? When the Collings foundation has storm damaged aircraft, the LSFM loaned control surfaces from their collection to get them back in the air. When the B-17 operators need tires, they get together to get an order for a mininum number to get Goodyear to make a run. You can't go down to your local Goodyear dealer and buy a 56"SC tire.

[sdennison]

skymstr02,

First, welcome to the board. What bird do you own and can you post some pictures?

Secondly, I think that if you scroll back up this page to Glenn Wegman's post and reread that one you'll get the jist of this topic. Although there is another thread going about LSFM this one is to discuss options not commandeer a fleet of museum aircraft.

If I had three days notice, a family, and a Mustang; I'm saving my family but you can sure bet I'd call Glenn to get my Mustang out. So how many families, how many warbirds and how many "Glenn's" could help? That's the goal.

Regards,
Scott

[Chuck Gardner]

On the subject of A-20s, the last person in the world to fly an A-20 is still the most current pilot in that type. I bet he'd do a pretty good job of flying it again after 12 something years.

[RickH]

The pilot pool is a great idea but would only work if it was coordinated on a national level and agreed upon by the individual museums with flyable aircraft. It will be difficult to get all the personalities on the same page.

The statics are going to be dead meat.

[Dave Hackett]

First, I would like to thank Rob for even broaching the subject, and the rest for their opinions. Second, I would like to thank the Dallas types for their work on getting airplanes to safety.

Now, some logistical issues for thought. I flew into Daytona last year before one of the hurricanes, I think it was Jeanne, and we were not even 1/4 full. I know the folks going were only trying to get home and get there families or home taken care of. This was like 16 hours before landfall, and the station was already securing everything they had, and were going to be done when they got our flight out. So, how do you get people in? I mean when do you make the decision to evacuate? Do you do it 3 days out and then have the problem of getting the airplane home? Also, who is going to be able to just take off from work and go out and buy the ticket to go get the plane?

Second, the info on the insurance companies just get in the plane and get it out is interesting. Does that mean the owner is now self insured if something happens on the way to "safety"? Also, does that mean that I can go and get in a plane that the FAA has not legally determined I am compotent to fly? I know there are a lot of people who can fly planes that were in the path of the storms, but who would have been legal able, and available?

Lastly, the funding issue. Lots of volunteers for the housing of the plane, but the plane ticket for the pilot, the food, gas, insurance, motel?

I am all for the opportunity, even in desperation by the owner to fly one of these gems, but....

Just my few quick thoughts,

dave

[sdennison]

No offense Gents, but if there was as much effort put into answering these questions as there appears to be in determining why the plan could not work, we might even figure it out...

[sdennison]

Col., now we're getting somewhere. Who has these lists? Who wants to take the lead on this project? Count me in to help.

Who are the most prevalent insurers that we could contact for input from their point of view? Perhaps they would be in favor of having a qualified rescue plan for their "investments".

Fundage? I had a friend who was the Director of the American Bowling Congress. It amazed me that their budget was derived from memberships. They had 3 million members @ $10 a head. Nice annual budget, no? Obviously, we don't but how many warbird members are in EAA? $1, $5, $10 donations to an escrow fund? Warbird magazine subscrition lists or better yet, articles in the mags to get to the readers properly. Government grants, foundation donations, air museum donation boxes, corporate donations? Could this be a separate Warbird Preservation Foundation?

I don't have the all answers but I have a few ideas...

[Dave Hackett]

I agree, now we are getting somewhere. Perhaps, there is a way to "create" a disaster reponse team with a "small" annual membership to create a fund for the future. And also, perhaps there would be a way to get people who are high time, but not warbird fliers qualified to participate in the plans (I volunteer too Randy). I know that if I had a day or two off, and had to get somewhere to help get planes out, I would. Just have to keep trucking on the "by 50 plan"! Anyone need a right seater in their 25?

The way I see it, there are 3 problems that have to be resolved. First, how to get transportation to where the bird(s) are. Second, qualified pilots for that(ose) bird(s). And third, a "fund" to help the evacuations. I guess it all starts with having a list of owners in the prospective danger zones and quarrying them on their interest in help.

Count me in on the planning if need be.

dave