Is Reno history?

[Tim Savage]

WTH Wow, forget your meds today Gary?


NASCAR didn't die when Dale Earnhardt died, but they sure as heck made a whole slew of safety changes to make things safer.

BIG difference between the Earnhardt accident and what just happened here. The NASCAR crash did not kill at least eleven and maime a bunch more. While I think all of us in the warbird/air racing community would like to think things are going to go on as normal, I for one don't see how that is possible, nor do I see how you can prevent another incident like happened through safety measures (as rare as this one was, and is unlikely as it is to occur again.) The bottom line is whether the FAA, insurance companies and the Reno Airport Authority will let it continue. I saw in the local RNO media last night that the Airport Authority is already pointing out that RARA's lease expires 6/30/2012, which is before the next race. They haven't committed to renewing it.

[Brad]

It makes a huge difference. Military regs dictate how the Thunderbird team operates and anything from an investigation would be broadcast through the military not translating to civilian regulations, the FAA would regulate the Reno Races because they fall under civilian regulations, not military.

Military and civilian aviation accidents, the causes and fallout of them are all very closely intertwined and they do affect each other! The Reno Guard guys share Stead field and the military has a lot to say about how things are done at airports where their units are based. Besides that, military aviation still falls under the purview of the FAA. Yes there is some leeway in instances but the two are closer than you seem to think. Even a totally military airshow on a military installation requires the cooporation of the FAA. The military can easily decide not to support a civilian show for any number of reasons. In many occasions this can easily bring about the end of a show. Even at Reno, the East end of the field would be empty except for the jet pits if the military decided, for whatever reason, to not support the show.

[Paul Krumrei]

It makes a huge difference. Military regs dictate how the Thunderbird team operates and anything from an investigation would be broadcast through the military not translating to civilian regulations, the FAA would regulate the Reno Races because they fall under civilian regulations, not military.

Military and civilian aviation accidents, the causes and fallout of them are all very closely intertwined and they do affect each other! The Reno Guard guys share Stead field and the military has a lot to say about how things are done at airports where their units are based. Besides that, military aviation still falls under the purview of the FAA. Yes there is some leeway in instances but the two are closer than you seem to think. Even a totally military airshow on a military installation requires the cooporation of the FAA. The military can easily decide not to support a civilian show for any number of reasons. In many occasions this can easily bring about the end of a show. Even at Reno, the East end of the field would be empty except for the jet pits if the military decided, for whatever reason, to not support the show.

Agreed, but the Military would not have final say over the FAA regulations. They would have input and influence, but not overall control of them, that is my only point.

[Paul Krumrei]

WTH Wow, forget your meds today Gary?


NASCAR didn't die when Dale Earnhardt died, but they sure as heck made a whole slew of safety changes to make things safer.

BIG difference between the Earnhardt accident and what just happened here. The NASCAR crash did not kill at least eleven and maime a bunch more. While I think all of us in the warbird/air racing community would like to think things are going to go on as normal, I for one don't see how that is possible, nor do I see how you can prevent another incident like happened through safety measures (as rare as this one was, and is unlikely as it is to occur again.) The bottom line is whether the FAA, insurance companies and the Reno Airport Authority will let it continue. I saw in the local RNO media last night that the Airport Authority is already pointing out that RARA's lease expires 6/30/2012, which is before the next race. They haven't committed to renewing it.

I just hope that it can survive and not letting this incident influence the decision to close the event.

[maradamx3]

...............Like you, I wonder what those changes will be…..I imagine that the public will be further away from the course. Just my two cents.

Understand what you're saying, but how much further away will the public be? 50 feet, 100, 500, 1000. .....? Are you ever really out of danger if you're on the airport grounds? There's no doubt the stands and boxes will be moved, if only because some short minded people will focus only on that aspect and demand it. Will that make a difference? Who knows? Would it have? Who can say? If you change one thing in the past, what else changes? Does it matter at this point? I'm not saying don't move the public away from the action or further back, or whatever. What I hope doesn't happen are the knee-jerk reactions to do things just to do them, without any thought or reasoning behind the changes. Move the crowd? OK, fine. Where? How far? Why? What will this achieve? Is there a bonafide return on safety, quality of show, or whatever, or is the change purely symbolic to appease naysayers, lawyers, the media, detractors, etc? Just hoping anything that is proposed is carefully thought out and makes the sport safer and better.
Tommy

[Obergrafeter]

Never been to Reno so don't know,.........would it be possible to move the stands to the inside of the race course rather than outside the turns? Would that be safer or just a dumb idea?

[Ploesti]

I just hope that it can survive and not letting this incident influence the decision to close the event.

I hate to say it Paul but this incident will probably IMO greatly influence the decision to end Reno racing. How could it not? Insurance alone will probably dictate the outcome. I wonder if it would be wise to think about speed restrictions on the unlimiteds. Seems to me they may just be too fast for their own good. If there were speed restrictions wouldn't that lend to a more even playing field or would it take away the excitement of speed, speed and more speed? Just a thought!

[Mudge]

IMHO, the insurance companies are gonna' be the ones with the final decision.

Mudge the realist

[Paul Krumrei]

I just hope that it can survive and not letting this incident influence the decision to close the event.

I hate to say it Paul but this incident will probably IMO greatly influence the decision to end Reno racing. How could it not? Insurance alone will probably dictate the outcome. I wonder if it would be wise to think about speed restrictions on the unlimiteds. Seems to me they may just be too fast for their own good. If there were speed restrictions wouldn't that lend to a more even playing field or would it take away the excitement of speed, speed and more speed? Just a thought!

I know, it just plain sucks, we lose the free spirit of being in aviation, being able to do those things that we are passionate about. Just a real shame that it might come to that point.

[spookythecat]

Reno is history.....AVIATION HISTORY!!!

Hopefully it will continue to create it as well.

[mivey]

I think there is a bigger picture than just the insurance or the safety on the continuation of the races.

1.) Last year the Air Races lost a reported $90,000. This year they lost the two most important income days (Saturday and Sunday) and the losses this year will be astronomical. Regardless of the insurance, law suits that are sure to come, and safety concerns, the major loss of $$$$ this year might be too much to recover from.

2.)Vendors. Vendors will be named in every law suit as they are required to carry insurance as well. I know of two vendors that lost an extremely large amount of money last week. One said around $125,000 and the other around $50,000. Vendors are an important part of the races and if premiums go up on them and the losses of this year might be too much for them to return.

My fear is the loss of money this year will cripple the efforts to hold another air race again. I hope I am wrong!

[gary1954]

I just hope that it can survive and not letting this incident influence the decision to close the event.

I hate to say it Paul but this incident will probably IMO greatly influence the decision to end Reno racing. How could it not? Insurance alone will probably dictate the outcome. I wonder if it would be wise to think about speed restrictions on the unlimiteds. Seems to me they may just be too fast for their own good. If there were speed restrictions wouldn't that lend to a more even playing field or would it take away the excitement of speed, speed and more speed? Just a thought!

IMO speed restrictions would effectively kill Reno, concur on the insurance companies probably dictating the outcome.
With regard to the comment previously posted "NASCAR didn't die when Dale Earnhardt died, but they sure as heck made a whole slew of safety changes to make things safer." and speed restrictions really took a lot of the "edge" out of the race, but the show goes on.
The NHRA made things safer after one of the Platt Brothers lost control of his Funny Car at around 140 (back then that was exceptionally fast) and the car went up into the crowd. The track was closed for the rest of the day, then racing resumed following the investigation. bu the show went on.

I would imagine that if the property owner can be released from any liability and the lease renewed, that the show could go on.

[Invader26]

Digressing:

It will take a year or two [at least ] for the investigations to conclude. If Reno is re-run it would not be before 2013/14 at the minimum. No insurer will cover them without a thorough risk analysis and things in place to prevent future losses. Remember that the insurance industry is NOT interested in air racing.

One could possibly make a case for "low energy" classes like F1/Biplane/T-6 but jets and unlimiteds as we've seen are high kinetic energy 'weapons' if they go out of control.

Comparing air racing to motor racing isn't valid. Cars/bikes/boats can't as a rule access the public these days. An aircraft racer is a "free agent" and not a control-line model.


Here's a note rom the great Howie Keefe - the original Miss America..

from Howie Keefe: - Aviation Legend --

I doubt the loss of an elevator trim caused Jimmy to dive in. At those speeds, we usually have a slight nose down trim. What might have happened is that if the trim blew off and he suddenly started to climb at what I called the Devil's Corner** it distracted him enough that caused him to go wide on the turn and in trying to get back as to not over fly the deadline ahead, he pulled back too hard and went into a high speed stall that, as one witness said, looked like he went into an involuntary lomcevak ( a somersault.)

I had that going wide at Devil's corner and choose to go behind the stands once and be disqualified rather then risk a high speed stall trying a tight turn to get back before the deadline came up. Cutting the deadline (a line down the center of the runway that starts where the stands start, not down where the pits start) that in all air shows the FAA says must be 2,000 feet away from the crowd line, can cost you not only being disqualified, but also the FAA may cancel your license. But going behind the stands is considered by the FAA as making a wise decision, but, naturally you have to be disqualified for leaving the race course in that particular race.

** I called it the Devil's Corner, because it is the only pylon turn on the race course where if you go wide, you have to immediately decide to make the Devil's Decision of going behind the stands or risk a high speed stall to get back before the deadline starts. What makes it a critical point is that the turn comes at the end of a straightaway where you are going your fastest--its easily a mile long and you are going "downhill" from about a 200' higher altitude that adds to your "flat & level" speed---really screaming. In my 11 years of Unlimited Air Racing at Reno, I must have come at that pylon over 500 times reminding myself to start my turn at least 3 seconds before getting there so as not to go too wide. Being distracted in those few seconds is critical.

I recall one race where Bob Hoover, who flew the pace plane to start our races and after the start flew overhead to keep an eye out for any problems, uncharacteristically dropped down on the race course flying at normal speed. I came upon him about a half-mile short of Devil's Corner and called out for him to hold his course because I was going to pass and make a turn right in front of him. He immediately left the course and later apologized.

Howie Keefe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV0nMJvnhz8

[Steve S]

IMHO, the insurance companies are gonna' be the ones with the final decision.

Mudge the realist

What he said
It only survives and has survived as a viable busieness venture and if the costs excede profit - well you know the rest

[gary1954]

Now that is frickin interesting and throws a lot of light on the subject of/for one that doesn't race anything
Thanks for Posting that!