What just happened at Reno?

[michaelharadon]

I think this thread and the other thread on Reno air racing's future has been extremely interesting to me for the simple reason it went from "what happened?" to "sadness at what happened" to "lets discuss maturely and responsibly what happened" to credible experts here on WIX explaining "what they believed happened" to those same credible experts disecting "what probably happened" to a reasonable and respectful conclusion of "what most likely happened" to an extremely informative explanation of the workings of a modern warbird unlimited racer and what "could happen in a mishap" back in a kind of "full circle" to what the future of unlimited warbird air racing could and possibly will be. Congrats to the WIX community. I'm sure all of you who have had a say over the past week can be proud. Anyone who examines this board, no matter if media or investigators will find of most valuable.

But it still hurts to think about last Friday. hope I wasn't too tactless lol

X 2, Ploesti. Great post.

[CoastieJohn]

NTSB Identification: WPR11MA454
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, September 16, 2011 in Reno, NV
Aircraft: NORTH AMERICAN/AERO CLASSICS P-51D, registration: N79111
Injuries: 11 Fatal, 66 Serious

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On September 16, 2011, about 1626 Pacific daylight time, an experimental North America P-51D, N79111, impacted terrain following a loss of control while maneuvering at Reno Stead Airport, Reno, Nevada. The airplane was registered to Aero-Trans Corp, Ocala, Florida, and operated by the pilot as Race 177 under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. The commercial pilot sustained fatal injuries; the airplane sustained substantial damage. Casualties on the ground included 10 fatalities and 74 injured. As of the time of this preliminary report, eight of the injured remain hospitalized, some in critical condition. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident, and no flight plan had been filed for the local air race flight, which departed from Reno Stead Airport about 10 minutes before the accident.

The airplane was participating in the Reno National Championship Air Races in the last event of the day. The airplane had completed several laps and was in a steep left turn towards the home pylon when, according to photographic evidence, the airplane suddenly banked momentarily to the left before banking to the right, turning away from the race course, and pitching to a steep nose-high attitude. Witnesses reported and photographic evidence indicates that a piece of the airframe separated during these maneuvers. After roll and pitch variations, the airplane descended in an extremely nose-low attitude and collided with the ground in the box seat area near the center of the grandstand seating area.

Investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the Federal Aviation Administration examined the wreckage on site. They documented the debris field and identified various components of the airplane's control system and control surfaces. The wreckage was removed to a secure storage facility for detailed examination at a later date.

The airplane's ground crew noted that the airplane had a telemetry system that broadcast data to a ground station as well as recorded it to a box on board the airplane. The crew provided the ground station telemetry data, which includes engine parameters and global positioning satellite system data to the NTSB for analysis. The onboard data box, which sustained crush damage, was sent to the NTSB's Vehicle Recorder laboratory for examination. Investigators recovered pieces of a camera housing and multiple detached memory cards from the airplane's onboard camera that were in the debris field. The memory cards and numerous still and video image recordings were also sent to the Vehicle Recorders laboratory for evaluation.

The Federal Aviation Administration and the Reno Air Race Association are parties to the investigation.

If I'm reading the prelim report correctly....the trim tab came off during the left / right banking. Did the abrupt banking cause the tab to come off....or....did the tab cause the left / right banking? I'm a little confused now.

[Steve S]

[quote="CoastieJohn
If I'm reading the prelim report correctly....the trim tab came off during the left / right banking. Did the abrupt banking cause the tab to come off....or....did the tab cause the left / right banking? I'm a little confused now.[/quote]


I am not the expert that some folk son this board are but I believe it was 2 events- 1st came failure of the trim tab which precipiated the situation adn cuased the initial snap up - but it was still semi attached to the aircraft at this time although most likely only paritially attached adn non functioning, and then the final disconnection of the unit from the airframe in the process of the banking as noted in the report-

[P51Mstg]

Guess the last post didn't get up....

I watched it and photographed it....

2 events, banking in the turbulence of the other aircraft.

THEN an abrupt pitch up when the trim tab failed.

The tab came off at the inboard attachment and then about 0.36 seconds later came off at the outboard attachment point. That was when it left the airplane. It was pretty much nonfunctioning when it got detached.

Mark H

[dougdrivr]

One of the best HD vids of the final pylon, (without the impact). Sure looks like some dirty air there.
http://vimeo.com/29519344

[CraigQ]

Guess the last post didn't get up....

I watched it and photographed it....

2 events, banking in the turbulence of the other aircraft.

THEN an abrupt pitch up when the trim tab failed.

The tab came off at the inboard attachment and then about 0.36 seconds later came off at the outboard attachment point.

Mark H

I believe if you study this picture you will see that the trim tab actually broke into two pieces. Unless it was changed from stock the P-51 trim tab has 3 attach hinges.

It failed at the inboard hinge/attach point and then it failed at the center hinge point. Leaving a piece of the tab in place from the center hinge to the outer hinge attach point.

[P51Mstg]

I'd have to agree you are right.... I thought that the part hanging was the whole thing. My pics aren't quite as clear.....

Mark H

[Cropduster]

Greetings everyone, brand new to this forum.
I want to say this is the most professional forum I think I have ever seen and I applaud everyone here.
My son and I were at Reno and were in the stands when the accident happened. Luckily we were high enough to prevent any injury but that is something I hope neither one of has to see or hear again. Several of us thought he was just going to do an immelman over us and come around to land. Sadly that didn't happen. Thank God there was no fire.

I haven't seen it posted anywhere, there will be a memorial for Jimmy this Friday at 12:30. There is also a way for people to make donations if they wish. The link to his site is: http://www2.leewardairranch.com/

Voodoo also had telemetry with video. Here is a link to last years race: http://vimeo.com/15541909
If the memory cards they found are from GG and are readable, it should really help to determine if there was any flutter, etc. maybe get a little more insight.
Interesting watching the speeds and G meter on voodoo flying. Too bad they blanked out the engine parameters. LOL.

[jtramo]

The tailwheel extended really early in the sequence of events. Almost looks like it came down milliseconds *before* the pitch up or simultaneously. That seems odd since at that point there wasnt enough g-force to break the uplock or am i missing something with the p-51 systems?

[Randy Haskin]

The tailwheel extended really early in the sequence of events. Almost looks like it came down milliseconds *before* the pitch up or simultaneously. That seems odd since at that point there wasnt enough g-force to break the uplock or am i missing something with the p-51 systems?

Remember that crossing wake turbulence while the airplane is all ready loaded up both significantly increases the load factor but is also considered asymmetric G (of which aircraft have significantly lower limits when compared to symmetric G load).

What I see in the Schileriff video is what appears to be a pretty significant bit of wake turbulence when the initial left roll happens, followed by an additional "dig in" in pitch immediately at the end of the roll (and that's when it seems to me that is when the tail wheel begins to pop out).

If he was all ready loaded to 5 or 6 G in the turn when he hits that turbs, the asymmetric loading on the airplane could have been incredibly high...all sorts of internal structural deformation and damage could have happened at that point.

[Paul Krumrei]

I agree Randy, with the forces already around 5-6 G's digging in the air like that appeared to snap the tail like a whip. Which I am assuming which caused the tail wheel to come out like that.

[gary1954]

Greetings everyone, brand new to this forum.
I want to say this is the most professional forum I think I have ever seen and I applaud everyone here.
My son and I were at Reno and were in the stands when the accident happened. Luckily we were high enough to prevent any injury but that is something I hope neither one of has to see or hear again. Several of us thought he was just going to do an immelman over us and come around to land. Sadly that didn't happen. Thank God there was no fire.

I haven't seen it posted anywhere, there will be a memorial for Jimmy this Friday at 12:30. There is also a way for people to make donations if they wish. The link to his site is: http://www2.leewardairranch.com/

Voodoo also had telemetry with video. Here is a link to last years race: http://vimeo.com/15541909
If the memory cards they found are from GG and are readable, it should really help to determine if there was any flutter, etc. maybe get a little more insight.
Interesting watching the speeds and G meter on voodoo flying. Too bad they blanked out the engine parameters. LOL.

Welcome to the Forum Cropduster. sometimes a seatbelt is required. Definitely a day that you and your son is unlikely to forget. Glad you made it through undamaged.
Again, Welcome aboard.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

(guys, you use a motor to start the engine...)

Everybody involved in this business knows that motors are electric and engines are IC, but just as Naval Aviators call carriers "boats" even though they know they're ships--it's a kind of back-handed attempt to show they're pilots and are above such silly maritime differentiations--EVERYBODY in the car-racing business (I'm a pilot but an automotive journalist) calls engines "motors." Calling a racecar's engine "an engine" shows that you're an overly knowledgeable outsider. Strange and silly, but that's the way it is, and pedantically trying to correct them demonstrates the same thing.

[Speedy]

(guys, you use a motor to start the engine...)

Everybody involved in this business knows that motors are electric and engines are IC, but just as Naval Aviators call carriers "boats" even though they know they're ships--it's a kind of back-handed attempt to show they're pilots and are above such silly maritime differentiations--EVERYBODY in the car-racing business (I'm a pilot but an automotive journalist) calls engines "motors." Calling a racecar's engine "an engine" shows that you're an overly knowledgeable outsider. Strange and silly, but that's the way it is, and pedantically trying to correct them demonstrates the same thing.

Uh...for what it's worth, we're called Naval Aviators because were 'better than pilots'.

[Stephan Wilkinson]

Roger. That's why I carefully referred to you as "Naval Aviators." You guys are much admired by me.