Warbird Information Exchange

They sure do....

And shop managers absolutely love them.


Here’s been my experience with relatively honest shops...


In 2008, general aviation almost died in my area. To survive, the shops laid off everyone except the mechanics that generated the highest profits. These were the guys that would cut corners and pencil-whip anything, if management gave them tacit approval. These mechanics are now signing off 50-60 hrs of labor for a 40 hr work week, that might have included 8 hours of mopping floors.


With the Corridor computerized maintenance software, I can instantly see all the time posted to jobs, and who posted it. Real easy to spot to clowns who would help me for 5 minutes, and post 45 minutes to my squawk, and the guys who complete a 60 hr phase inspection in 22 hrs. Shop managers do not want to discuss it (plausible deniability). A lot of their time is spent shifting labor from job to job, to make their stats look good, and not reveal any outrageous jobs or mechanics, that might raise questions about their management practices.


The shop managers I’ve worked with, generally know which customers they can overcharge, and they shift labor accordingly. I once reviewed a large maintenance bill for a local company with a KingAir 90, and pointed out $42,000 in obvious padding. They paid it without complaint, but took their aircraft elsewhere. Flight school owners always pick apart every bill, regardless of how small, but oil industry flight depts rarely question a padded bill. Newbie aircraft owners are easily fooled for the first year or two. Customers that raise a stink about a padded bill, usually get it quickly amended so the shop doesn’t lose their business.


When I work with a new group of mechanics, I politely tell them I don’t pencil whip anything, which usually results in an awkward silence. Quite a change from the good old days, when guys would compete for bragging rights about difficult jobs they had completed, on time, in spec, and within flat rate.

you're spot-on. I saw instances of mechanics billing us 10 hours or more in an eight hour day. 2 man hours to tow a Saab 250 metres and put it in a hangar... don't do a time and motion study on these guys.

The justification was generally - "well you want the job done correctly don't you"......

So let me ask, what do you think a fair rate for an A&P/IA service should be?
David

Sabremech,

That's sort of an open ended question. Anybody in business should charge a fair rate for the work they accomplish. This is not exclusive to any one industry. When a business allows and engourages their employees to pad the bills they will find themselves out of business.

Whatever shop an individual utilizes must address that point on a daily basis as part of it's business ethos. If a firm/individual lies on their billing then how can they expect any customer to trust them when it comes to the airworthiness of their work on a customer's aircraft.

A fair rate is subject to local area economics, facility complexity, etc. I have found universally that if you charge a crap wage you will work on crap aircraft operated by crap owners.

Hope this helps.

_________________
Bill Goebel
aka TPFD

Vintage Aircraft Services
Aircraft restoration and rebuilding
Rhome, TX

http://www.vintageaircraftservices.net

Hi Bill,
I understand what you're saying as I'm in this business too. The question raised here is 49.5 hours too much time for an inspection on an O-1? And the answer is not necessarily. Invader26 says he doesn't want anyone training on his airplane. So how do we train new mechanics if every owner has this no training on my airplane mentality? Suffice it to say, I'm training on an airplane almost every day if I've never worked on it before or worked on a particular system before. Just because it's an O-1 doesn't mean they're all the same and something new isn't learned.
Based on my experience working on L-19's, this is not out of the realm of a realistic time frame to complete an annual inspection especially if it's the first time through the shops door. It took us about 43 man hours to do the inspection on our Birddog this year.
David

Well, what I mentioned earlier still goes for just the inspection. Open it up, replenish basic fluids filters etc. for this type of aircraft normally runs about 16-18 hours. The 16-18 hours is only that tasking while I am wearing my IA hat. All other work is over and above.

Now.... if something is broken or worn out that task is added to that base number of 16-18 hours. I don't believe I have ever done just an annual inspection with no parts utilized or open squawk items present. If you use something it will wear, chafe, clog, corrode, etc.

To quote Invader26 let's break it down.

"My aircraft is in good condition and required a new battery, a repair to a rocket rail bracket and brake master cylinders redone [I supplied the kit and battery]

The dude hit me for 49.5 hrs labour for the annual plus brakes 17 hrs and repairs etc a couple of hours."

49.5 hours broken out as follows:

18 hours (high average) for an annual inspection task
31 hours of general mechanic duties to install a battery and repair a bracket (roughly three days effort, hmmm...)

Well that task is done. On to the additional task of the brakes.

17 hours (roughly a little over a two day effort) -

This particular aircraft is equipped with Cleveland two puck brakes. What do you do with the brakes that takes two days? To replace the lok-o-seals and bleed the system should not take 17 hours.

Even utilizing a junior mechanic type of skill set this (to me) seems a bit excessive. This could be the result of lack of supervision of the mechanic or possibly a questionable shop having their way with a customer.

Until I saw the list of parts replaced it could be anyones guess.

_________________
Bill Goebel
aka TPFD

Vintage Aircraft Services
Aircraft restoration and rebuilding
Rhome, TX

http://www.vintageaircraftservices.net

Hi Bill,
I stand by what I said in how much time it takes for us to do an annual on our Birddog. It took us 43 man hours from start to finish including paperwork with both the A&P and IA portions and relatively minor squawks. Kudos to you for getting it done in 16-18 hours. I won't comment on the 17 hour brake job squawk because we've only heard one side of the story. Also, the condition of an airplane is open for interpretation. The owner can take his airplane to another shop if he doesn't agree with the shop or technician, but ultimately some technician will put his signature on the line certifying the airworthiness. Should that signature come cheaply?
David Staffeldt
A&P/IA/aircraft owner

I don't charge for signatures. I charge an hourly maintenance rate. It is what it is.

_________________
Bill Goebel
aka TPFD

Vintage Aircraft Services
Aircraft restoration and rebuilding
Rhome, TX

http://www.vintageaircraftservices.net

OK Bill, It's all the same regardless. Without your signature, I doubt you get paid for your hourly maint rate.

Hmmmm,


Perhaps several of us are looking at this very same aircraft from very different perspectives.


I know I would inspect this aircraft differently, if I was the pilot, or if I was the owner, or if I rebuilt it from ashes, or if I was just an FBO mechanic.



As a mechanic for an FBO, I may see this...

A very simple aircraft, that I will do a thorough inspection on, as fast as accuracy allows. People’s lives depend on my performance.

- I will not close one eye,
- I will not inspect from 3ft away,
- I will not assume the last inspector/mechanic did anything correctly.

I have all the necessary tools, equipment, skills and experience.

If the flat rate is 20 hrs, I expect to complete the inspection under 20 hrs.





As a big warbird fan, and an FBO mechanic, I may see this...

An 0-1 Birddog, that is very very old, may have seen combat, and certainly seen a lot more flying experiences than most of the aircraft I work on. People’s lives depend on my performance.

- I will not close one eye,
- I will not inspect from 3ft away,
- I will not assume the last inspector/mechanic did anything correctly.
- I will look very closely for tiny signs of corrosion, wood rot, fabric deterioration, etc., that should be monitored in the future.

I have all the necessary tools, equipment, skills and experience.

If the flat rate is 20 hrs, then I will use all 20 hrs, and probably my own time (unpaid, not billed) to check this aircraft for defects and deficiencies.





As a mechanic for a flying warbird facility, I may see this...

An 0-1 Birddog, a near irreplaceable piece of aviation history. It is very old, may have seen combat, and certainly seen a lot more flying experiences than most aircraft. It is probably a collection of parts from several aircraft, that may have required years of skilled effort, and lots of money, to put back in the air. The restoration may have been problematic. A few people have probably invested a fair bit of their lives into this aircraft. It may be used for flying displays, and to honor the sacrifices of our veterans. People’s lives depend on my performance.

- I will not close one eye,
- I will not inspect from 3ft away,
- I will not assume the last inspector/mechanic did anything correctly.
- I will look very closely for any tiny signs of corrosion, wood rot, fabric deterioration, etc., that should be monitored in the future.
- I will use every tool, and every trick in my bag, to ensure that every part of the aircraft is able to perform it’s function. I will use all manner of test and inspection tools, spend hours researching failures associated with the aircraft, discuss the aircraft’s history with the owner, etc., etc.

I have all the necessary tools, equipment, skills and experience.

I expect the flat rate to be around 40 hrs. I will use all 40 hrs, and probably my own time (unpaid, not billed) to ensure this piece of aviation history has no maintenance failures for the next year.

Your thoughts?

Probably somewhere between options A and B.

At it's core this is a Cessna 170 with some quirks. It's systems and design philosophy are shared with the single most common aircraft ever produced - the 172. That it's an old airplane is not unusual. Most of them are. (average age of GA aircraft is quite high - appallingly high for many owners used to getting anew car every few years). Not to poo poo corrosion issues, but they are 90% environmental, not age related. A five year old working airplane in a southern coastal region is more likely to have bad corrosive effects than a northern hangar queen. Just a matter of knowing the airplane and the locale.

_________________
Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

I've been in this business for 40 years. My point is that a business should structure itself to be able to provide the services as advertised at a rate that is commensurate with the type of aircraft maintained for example. A Bird Dog is not pressurised, turbine engined [well not mine] nor full of complex hydraulic or electrical systems.

I've owned and operated the following types:

Falcon 50
Westwind 1
Beech 200
Metro 11/111/23
Saab 340A/B
Dash 7
Jetstream 41
E110
DHC-6 Twin Otter
Baron/Aerostar/Navajo/Islander

plus warbirds

T-6
T-28D
0-1
0-2
TBM
B-25
A-26
P2V-7
DC-3
FWP-149D


I've paid the bills. My point is that shops should charge a fair rate for their work. Also not pad the bill.

One of the reasons for the demise of general aviation is the cost model based on folks not following a true business model. I certainly don't support the "backyard" approach either..

Anyway my Dog was fully rebuilt years ago and has been hangared, regularly flown all the time. We did not expect this suprise that's all.

Thanks for the responses..

Sounds like you need to open your own shop so you can fix all the issues you've had. Good luck and hopefully you have a better annual experience next year.
David

I have been maintaining warbirds for over 25 years. I have certainly seen the spectrum regarding of quality of maintenance.

I simply use this "rule" when I bill my customers: Can I justify the time I am charging for ?

If I can not justify it to myself, I can not justify it to the customer when challenged. I have absolutly no problem charging a customer twice as long as it should take to do something if I can honestly justify to both myself and the customer why it took twice as long. I generally end up giving my time away this way.

The flip side of this argument is the number of people that believe you are overcharging them no matter what. I personally know of a couple of people that truly believe I should pay them for the "privilege" of working on their aircraft, and sharing my knowledge and large investment in tools and equipment for free is a basic right.

_________________
Expert:
Ex: Former.
Spurt: A drip under pressure.

Well, my all time favorite is when I was asked by a preacher if I would "Do it for Jesus."
The preacher man had on a $20k gold Rolex and we had just annualled his (Very Nice) Cessna 421.
After what i told him I'm pretty sure I'm going to he ll.

_________________
All I did was press this red button here...