Can you execute a perfect maintenance program?
Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:42 am
What are the elements of a good maintenance program? How do you tweak it up to the point where you have nearly zero error? How do you get past Volunteer issues when it comes to quality control of maintenance? How do you implant experience into institutional standards for maintenance (i.e. manual says 2 left turns but it only works with 2 right turns)?
Most important- what do you use as a benchmark to evaluate your maintenance program? My impression is that in GA, most maintenance done on aircraft happens at annual inspection. I don't think anybody flying what we are interested in here can go that route.
I am asking this in light of the continued news which gets posted here about inauspicious ends to some of these aircraft and a recent experience with the L5. I am not trying to be an FAA investigator (my A&P and IA friends have given me the post-crash stories about that). I am just interested in what the maintenance professionals here have to say about this subject. I'm not looking for the "my major airline carrier does this or my museum does this" answer. What is your "fantasy maintenance" program? Other than Halle Berry bringing you beers between spark plug changes, continually trying to wipe the grease off of her bikini-clad body....
Most important- what do you use as a benchmark to evaluate your maintenance program? My impression is that in GA, most maintenance done on aircraft happens at annual inspection. I don't think anybody flying what we are interested in here can go that route.
I am asking this in light of the continued news which gets posted here about inauspicious ends to some of these aircraft and a recent experience with the L5. I am not trying to be an FAA investigator (my A&P and IA friends have given me the post-crash stories about that). I am just interested in what the maintenance professionals here have to say about this subject. I'm not looking for the "my major airline carrier does this or my museum does this" answer. What is your "fantasy maintenance" program? Other than Halle Berry bringing you beers between spark plug changes, continually trying to wipe the grease off of her bikini-clad body....
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:08 am
What is your "fantasy maintenance" program? Other than Halle Berry bringing you beers between spark plug changes, continually trying to wipe the grease off of her bikini-clad body....
Well, there goes my answer...
Well, there goes my answer...
Re: Can you execute a perfect maintenance program?
Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:30 pm
Forgotten Field wrote:What are the elements of a good maintenance program? How do you tweak it up to the point where you have nearly zero error? How do you get past Volunteer issues when it comes to quality control of maintenance? How do you implant experience into institutional standards for maintenance (i.e. manual says 2 left turns but it only works with 2 right turns)?
Most important- what do you use as a benchmark to evaluate your maintenance program? My impression is that in GA, most maintenance done on aircraft happens at annual inspection. I don't think anybody flying what we are interested in here can go that route.
I am asking this in light of the continued news which gets posted here about inauspicious ends to some of these aircraft and a recent experience with the L5. I am not trying to be an FAA investigator (my A&P and IA friends have given me the post-crash stories about that). I am just interested in what the maintenance professionals here have to say about this subject. I'm not looking for the "my major airline carrier does this or my museum does this" answer. What is your "fantasy maintenance" program? Other than Halle Berry bringing you beers between spark plug changes, continually trying to wipe the grease off of her bikini-clad body....
This is a difficult question to reply to,
Mainly from the aspect of where my maintenance experiance has been gotten from, but that aside. There are a huge amount of vairables in any maintenance program. How often does the aircraft fly ? How proficient is the pilot ? What conditions has the aircraft been flown in....ie..alot of wind, rough landings etc... ? Does the aircraft in question have enough "time" flown on it during the course of a typical "airshow" year to warrant more than a couple of 100 hr and a good annual inspection during the year ? How "good" or healthy is the engine ? The components such as the hydraulic, primary fuel and boost pumps, brake system, tires and possibly most important...control cables ? What kind of shape is the prop in from an "on aircraft versus hours" perpsective ?
Most, if not all structural items would normally get adressed on an "on condition" basis during the annual. In a perfect world also, every time an owner wants his plane done the ready availibility of parts and spares wouldn't be a problem, but for Warbirds it is HUGE issue due to cost and availibility. Is the owner willing to or more importantly able to procure the parts as needed ? I am not attempting to hit any nerves here, but I do or rather have known Warbird owners who have been kind of stingy when it came to parts issues versus their enjoyment of flying the aircraft. But, it is still THEIR aircraft and they can do with it as they see fit. And according to the FAR's, last time I checked it was still the Owner/Operators responsability of the maintenance on the aircraft in question.
With regard to parts....I can cite one example...if a guy owned a T-6 and for some reason blew the engine, the cost involved for a "new" rebuilt one was (last time I checked) around $20,000.00 to $29,000.00. That is ALOT of money to come up with in one chunk. And that is just considering a replacement engine for a T-6. Not even wanting to think about the replacement of an R2800, Merlin, or Allison rebuild on a cost basis. And then you start considering the cost of "oddball" engines such as an R2600, R2000, or even something along the lines of an R3350 or bigger.
All of that plays in to the idea of a maintenance program. And what the owner wants to do, after all...it IS his aircraft.
In a perfect world, the annual should cover everything. Afterall...you have the "down time" of the Winter months. And, of course it helps immensely to get a guy with experiance to eyeball the plane.
Zero error is impossible. From the day that aircraft left the build up hangar the clock was ticking on it. How do you get experiance imparted to the volunteer group ? That is a REAL tough question, having been around ALOT of the so called volunteers who regard the guys who do the work with disdain. Especially when it comes the time to get a ride or wear a jumpsuit that says "I belong Mueum X" on it. Alot of folks are there expressly for that ego boost. But when it comes to fixing things....RIGHT....they somehow dissapear. But when the airshow is "on" they are magically there again and want to tell you how and when things get done.....Okay..enough soapbox on my part.
Imparting experiance to anyone is tough.....but if some folks want to take the time to learn and listen....it happens. And the folks who run the whole show know that. Finding that person to impart the experiance and more importantly...have both parties learn to TRUST each other will be a huge boost in any maintenance program...voluntary or otherwise.
Anyone have any thoughts ?? I'd love to have this topic continue.
Paul
Good response!
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:25 pm
Paul,
Great start and glad you see fit to invite further comment. Some more basic interrogatory based on your responses are below. As far as difficulty goes, you are absolutely right. And it is difficult because it is the reality that more and more warbird owners will be facing if airshows and other venue's continue to dwindle.
The questions used when setting up a maintenance program are well spoken by your response. But is there some magical formula on doing it? In WWII, logisticians came up with what spares were necessary to keep around to maintain an average sized unit functioning on average duty cycle. Of course, they had things like QEC Merlins and 1830's and 2600's at their fingertips. But does that mean that the owners should be out there in some sort of commune with a QEC/brake pack set/hydraulic service pack ready to go? Might be a good idea but in my type club (L5) the president tried to set up just a cylinder, magneto, starter common shelf for AOG situations and got almost NO response. Operating question- is there anything published already that we can adapt?
Cheap warbird owners? Count me among them. You should have heard me complaining about Desser when my tail wheel tire went bad. And bad thing was that the tailwheel tire was questionable last annual. But we made an educated guess on how long it would last and it lasted about 2 hours short of the 30 hours we thought we'd need on it before replacement. I won't make that mistake again. Operating question- How do you reasonably budget for a maintenance program?
Volunteers? I love when they come out to help me. And I also hate it. Some of them come with the goofiest ideas- like the guy who wanted to torch off the wing attach angles on my BT13 center section. He was just out of control, and if I wasn't there, he knew how to operate my torch. Out of deference to his age, I was real nice to him explaining that what he suggested was not an option. But don't you think I had a lump in my throat every time he showed up to "help?" Operating question- how do you vet maintenance volunteers? There is actually a more subtle but important operating question which reaches beyond "the Perfect Maintenance Program"- How do you develop lasting leadership skills in a volunteer organization?
Hope more people add to this thread, as my experience is not a drop compared to what is available here.
Great start and glad you see fit to invite further comment. Some more basic interrogatory based on your responses are below. As far as difficulty goes, you are absolutely right. And it is difficult because it is the reality that more and more warbird owners will be facing if airshows and other venue's continue to dwindle.
The questions used when setting up a maintenance program are well spoken by your response. But is there some magical formula on doing it? In WWII, logisticians came up with what spares were necessary to keep around to maintain an average sized unit functioning on average duty cycle. Of course, they had things like QEC Merlins and 1830's and 2600's at their fingertips. But does that mean that the owners should be out there in some sort of commune with a QEC/brake pack set/hydraulic service pack ready to go? Might be a good idea but in my type club (L5) the president tried to set up just a cylinder, magneto, starter common shelf for AOG situations and got almost NO response. Operating question- is there anything published already that we can adapt?
Cheap warbird owners? Count me among them. You should have heard me complaining about Desser when my tail wheel tire went bad. And bad thing was that the tailwheel tire was questionable last annual. But we made an educated guess on how long it would last and it lasted about 2 hours short of the 30 hours we thought we'd need on it before replacement. I won't make that mistake again. Operating question- How do you reasonably budget for a maintenance program?
Volunteers? I love when they come out to help me. And I also hate it. Some of them come with the goofiest ideas- like the guy who wanted to torch off the wing attach angles on my BT13 center section. He was just out of control, and if I wasn't there, he knew how to operate my torch. Out of deference to his age, I was real nice to him explaining that what he suggested was not an option. But don't you think I had a lump in my throat every time he showed up to "help?" Operating question- how do you vet maintenance volunteers? There is actually a more subtle but important operating question which reaches beyond "the Perfect Maintenance Program"- How do you develop lasting leadership skills in a volunteer organization?
Hope more people add to this thread, as my experience is not a drop compared to what is available here.
Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:26 pm
Paul brings up a lot of good points in his post above. (Tho as of a couple months ago, the base price for an R-1340 o/h at Covington was $28, 995.00 YEOWTCH)
Some of what the two flying museums I volunteer with do:
First, obviously, an appropriately rated mechanic supervises all work being done. Then, a second pair of eyeballs CHECKS all work, even if the guy checking is non-rated. (He or she must still have proven competance tho). This works out well for torque checks on fasteners, saftetying, etc.
Nothing is inherently *wrong* or *bad* about volunteer groups versus the paid groups, and in my mind the safety checks should be the same. No airline in the world would turn a freshly hired A&P loose on a plane without training on the systems.
Parts is a big issue. Bottom line though, is that the owner or operator has a stark choice: Either shell out for what the plane needs; or don't fly it.
As far as a "between annuals" check, we use oil changes as an excuse to look over the whole engine compartment, see if hoses are seeping, look for witness rubbing, etc.
All this assumes that you are operating an airplane that doesn't have an Approved Inspection Programme, as is the case with most of the small stuff.
As Paul said, TRUST is huge. Not just between the head mechanic and his deputies, but also between the pilots and mechanics.
WHEN YA GONNA GET YER STUFF JOHN?????
:)
Hope this helps, more later.
Some of what the two flying museums I volunteer with do:
First, obviously, an appropriately rated mechanic supervises all work being done. Then, a second pair of eyeballs CHECKS all work, even if the guy checking is non-rated. (He or she must still have proven competance tho). This works out well for torque checks on fasteners, saftetying, etc.
Nothing is inherently *wrong* or *bad* about volunteer groups versus the paid groups, and in my mind the safety checks should be the same. No airline in the world would turn a freshly hired A&P loose on a plane without training on the systems.
Parts is a big issue. Bottom line though, is that the owner or operator has a stark choice: Either shell out for what the plane needs; or don't fly it.
As far as a "between annuals" check, we use oil changes as an excuse to look over the whole engine compartment, see if hoses are seeping, look for witness rubbing, etc.
All this assumes that you are operating an airplane that doesn't have an Approved Inspection Programme, as is the case with most of the small stuff.
As Paul said, TRUST is huge. Not just between the head mechanic and his deputies, but also between the pilots and mechanics.
WHEN YA GONNA GET YER STUFF JOHN?????
:)
Hope this helps, more later.
Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:32 pm
In my opinion, the elements of a good maintenance program, especially for a warbird are, inspection, inspection, inspection! I always inspect my aircraft year round. I check the engine compartments every few months or so. Every once in a while I will find something that needs fixing. If you are constantly inspecting your airplane, the odds are you will know and understand your airplane better and can catch things that can hurt you in the future with continued use of the aircraft.
Another thing I suggest would be to inventory your tools. So when you complete a repair on the aircraft you can check your tools and make sure you have not left any in the airplane. I know from experience it is not good when a wrench is left in the bottom of an airplane. So keep track of your tools.
As far as parts go, I suggest keeping a good amount. I am sort of a pack-rat by nature, I don't like to throw things out, so I keep all the parts I can get my hands on.
As far as volunteer maintenance goes, teach the volunteers. Have a A&P mechanic you trust teach the volunteers how to maintain an airplane. Or in the case the volunteer already knows how to maintain, have the mechanic you trust watch over the volunteer until you can trust the volunteer.
It also helps a lot if, the pilot is also one of the mechanics. If this is not possible, make sure the mechanics have a good relationship with the pilot or pilots. This helps with squawks and the issue of trust.
One last word of advice, inspect and inspect again to make sure repairs are done correctly.
Just some of my thoughts.
Eric
Another thing I suggest would be to inventory your tools. So when you complete a repair on the aircraft you can check your tools and make sure you have not left any in the airplane. I know from experience it is not good when a wrench is left in the bottom of an airplane. So keep track of your tools.
As far as parts go, I suggest keeping a good amount. I am sort of a pack-rat by nature, I don't like to throw things out, so I keep all the parts I can get my hands on.
As far as volunteer maintenance goes, teach the volunteers. Have a A&P mechanic you trust teach the volunteers how to maintain an airplane. Or in the case the volunteer already knows how to maintain, have the mechanic you trust watch over the volunteer until you can trust the volunteer.
It also helps a lot if, the pilot is also one of the mechanics. If this is not possible, make sure the mechanics have a good relationship with the pilot or pilots. This helps with squawks and the issue of trust.
One last word of advice, inspect and inspect again to make sure repairs are done correctly.
Just some of my thoughts.
Eric
????
Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:54 pm
And then you start considering the cost of "oddball" engines such as an R2600, R2000, or even something along the lines of an R3350 or bigger.
I think the last 2600 we did for the B-25 was $65,000 give or take.
Re: ????
Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:47 pm
Jack Cook wrote:I think the last 2600 we did for the B-25 was $65,000 give or take.
Really! I would have guessed the R-2600 would cost a lot more than $65,000. We had a R-2800 done about a year ago, and it cost a little over $110,000.
Eric
???
Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:18 pm
This was 5 years ago and they put the wrongs harness on it...oops!
Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:27 pm
Lots of tribal knowledge here. I think your average A&P would be dumbfounded trying to do heads and banks on a Merlin.
I visited Aero Engines in April. Most of the inspectors have been there 35 years. A lot of talent will be retiring in the next 5 years at all these places I'm afraid.
I visited Aero Engines in April. Most of the inspectors have been there 35 years. A lot of talent will be retiring in the next 5 years at all these places I'm afraid.
???
Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:47 am
My fantasy maintenence program.
Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:55 am
My fantasy maintenence program would be just like that picture except a little less clothing on the females!
Eric
Eric
Wed Oct 12, 2005 7:57 am
My goodness! $110,000 for one R-2800!
Now this is more like it:
http://www.jrengines.com/Price.htm
You can rebuild two for that price and have some fuel money left over.
Now this is more like it:
http://www.jrengines.com/Price.htm
You can rebuild two for that price and have some fuel money left over.
Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:06 am
You sure will have money left for fuel! With prices up to $4.00 a gallon here in Southern California, it gets pretty @%$#* expensive when you fly 3 times or more a week. Where is that J & R engines located?
Eric
Eric
Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:28 am
Eureka181 wrote:. Where is that J & R engines located?
Eric
The web site has them in Miami, FL