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When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:29 pm 
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Forgotten Field,

A comment if I may about repairman's certificates. These documents are not wide ranging affairs. These are specific to an item or system. They are not specific to an aircraft on a wholesale level. For the most part repairmen's certificates are issued on a case by case basis and the individual is not approved for more than the certicate allows. In other words...you cannot be issued a repairmans certificate for a 747, but you can be issed one for the avionics package on that aircraft, and since there are many variants to the 747, you would have to be rated for each type. For example...a 747-100 does not have the same avionics as a 747-200, and more importantly, neither have the same avionics package as the 747-400. You see my meaning behind this illustration. Along the same lines, the 747-100 series was type certified with a "modern day engine" (PW JT9D-7A/F)....as was the 747-200 series with its own "modern day engine" (PW JT9D-7Q/R4) and neither of them come close to the most modern day aircraft which is the 747-400 which has it's OWN "modern day engine" (PW 4000 series). As a repairman you would have to carry separate "ratings" for each type....NOT the aircraft as a whole.

This was just an illustration of how the "repairmans" certificate is categorized by the FAA. The A&P holder carries far broader priviledges than a repairman does. And the illustration also is very restrictive. However, in a case such as sheetmetal work...the repairman has those broad ranging priviledges.

Hope this helps.....any thoughts ??

Paul


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:29 pm 
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John,

Excellent posting and I couldn't agree more.

Paul


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:30 pm 
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Okay,

one comment on the volunteer issue. I agree with many here who put forward the idea of mentoring. Heck, if it weren't for some of the "edler statesmen" in my career, who took the time and above all patience, to show me how things got done I wouldn't have gotten this far. In any place I have every worked for a paycheck, the newbies or in this case volunteers, were termed "probies". Now, I grant you that is not the most politically correct of terms but essentially that is what they were and I was. I'll share with you my own personal experiance with regard to being that volunteer, but keep in mind that I already had an A&P in my pocket when I began my volunteering.

In the early 1980's I had gotten out of tech school in Pennsylvania. NO I did not attend PIA, but my thoughts on PIA are a whole different subject. I went to work for a contractor to the Government where we overhauled, and MAN o MAN was I unprepared for this, Navy Training aircraft...North American T-2's, Beechcraft T-34's, the odd Grumman G-1, and some maintenance on DeHavilland Caribou's. A friend of mine, who graduated from the tech school class the year ahead of me helped get me there, and I worked in the sheetmetal shop rebuilding the doors, canopies, ejection seats, and flight controls. Fun work... We shared the building, we had most of it, with the Mid Atlantic Air Museum, which was behind the separation wall/curtain. I was curious as to what they had going on over there so I went. At the time this was all happening in Harribug, Pa. and I liked the idea of learning more to become better at my craft than I was. So I joined them. I was given jobs such as sweeping the floors...and all of the menial tasks there were. Even though I had the license that is what I did in the begining. Russ Strine saw that I was capable of more so he began putting me on tasks on the aircraft. Now, if anyone knows the MAAM, you may also know Russ Strine Sr. better known as "Pappy". Getting Pappy to even talk to me let alone even acknowledging my presence was a serious challenge. Because Pappy did B-25's during WW II and Briefing Time, the MAAM's "flagship", was his baby and Pappy basically ran all of the maintenance on all of their aircraft. I had to PROVE myself to Pappy before he would even talk to me.

I spoke to Russ about it one day and he told me...be patient and keep doing what you are doing...because Pappy was of the generation, that had "been there...done that" and you had to show folks like him that you could and were above all WILLING to learn. One day...several weeks later, I found myself working on some tires for their P2V-7, and Pappy walked over while I was working, and he just stood there. I started sweating bullets because I was being watched by him so I kept my mouth shut and kept on going. Finally to my deepest surprise, he started talking to me. Hell...he even called me by name and I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. We spoke for a while...and he smiled at me and said go over and service the R4D because it was headed to an airshow the upcoming weekend and he wanted to get the needed servicing done as soon as he could before the aircraft left for the show. At the end of the evening I went over to Russ to say goodnight and told him what happened. Russ laughed and said...you made the "cut". You have proved to Pappy that you were able to not only do the job asked of you...but do it right and listen and LEARN from someone who knew more than you. After that I was able to talk to Pappy on a direct level...converse with him about all kinds of things and the trust level beagn to build. Several months later I accepted employment elsewhere and I had to leave the MAAM. But I will never forget that time in my life when I felt that while I was being watched and scrutinized for my ability as a volunteer, and then made the grade with a person who had "been there done that".

To this day, now some 20 plus years later, every time there is an airshow within my area that Briefing Time or folks from the MAAM are in attendance. I make it point to go, just to say hi. Russ only now, given the time gone past, remembers me only in passing, and Pappy, given his advanced years doesn't recall me at all. But I will never forget the experiance and thefeeling I got from being accepted by that "mentor". I have had others in my career also, I have been blessed to have had the chance to work with some of the FINEST "tin benders" I have ever known. They are all retired or have passed on now and I miss their friendship and teaching and time they took to elevate me and my skills.

I guess in a nutshell...I like the the idea of mentoring...it goes hand in hand with what the bottom line of the FAR's are all about. If it weren't for the guys who taught me...I wouldn't be here to discuss the topic. But what I will say about the volunteer's who are out there....I would gladly pass along my knowledge and skills, but they must fulfill their end of the bargain as well...and that is, to be committed to learning...ask questions...not be afraid to admit their own shortcomings in their knowledge and go from there. Otherwise....get ready to do alot of sweeping, cleaning, or wiping down of aircraft.

As I said in a previous post....the terms Apprentice, Journeyman, Craftsman, and Master Craftsman do have meaning...and we are slowly loosing those Master Craftsman and Craftsman....you gotta learn from these gentleman before their knowledge is lost..........for good. You can read a manual and that doesn't make you an expert...but you cannot replace experiance.

Thoughts anyone,

Respectfully,

Paul


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:14 pm 
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Paul,

I apologize to Forgotten Field for getting off-topic but I'm a little confused by one of the points you continue to bring up in several of your posts. On one hand it sounds like you believe only licensed "volunteer mechanics" should be working on Warbirds, and on the other hand you agree with what I've written. I clearly state that it is my belief that you need not be a licensed mechanic to work on these aircraft to do high quality work, however a license holder must be present to inspect and sign off the completed work. I believe the FAR's support this with the caveat that the work be carried out under the supervision of, and be inspected and signed off by a licensed A&P, IA or both when required. Understand that most if not all museums could not fly their airplanes to the extent they currently do without the help of high quality unlicensed mechanics and fabricators.

Not picking, just looking for clarity in whatever point you are attempting to make. If you feel I'm in error, that’s fine...we will agree to disagree!

John


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:22 pm 
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Aircraft Mech Paul wrote:
And...the following "no rated mechanic my buy off or inspect his own work". That is why we have IA's and at the airlines...Inspectors, primarily for that purpose. Because no single A&P may work on and accept work that he or she has performed. Take an annual for exapmple. You must have an IA come in and give what your or the rated A&P did to complete the annual.

Paul


Paul, I have to disagree with you on this as far as 14CFR91 operated aircraft are concerned. This is only true in the airline (14CFR121) operations. The airlines don't have IA's, they have RII's. Mechanics with and inspection authorization are certificated to 14CFR65.91, 93, 95 and have a separate certificate. Inspectors with the airlines only have that certificate with the particular airline, and are issued by that airline.

I've held an IA since february, 1978, and I can approve for return to service all of the work that I perform, major alterations, repairs, and inspections on non airline equipment. They come under a different set of rules. The scope and detail of an annual and 100 hour inspections are the same, ref: 14CFR43, App D., the only difference is who is able to return the aircraft to service.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:26 pm 
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Aircraft Mech Paul,

Well said! You sure know what you are talking about.

Well, I have a T-6 and a few other various warbirds. I don't like to be a show off when it comes to what planes I have.

I am also active with the Southern California Wing of the CAF.

How can there be nothing for you to participate in? There has to be some warbird museum or something.

Eric

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:30 pm 
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I think everyone getting at the same thing but some you can get LOST IN TRANSLATION on these chat sites. I look at them alot as I'm doing Ebay. I know what you mean about the old timers. They won't talk to you unless your putting out 100 per cent. Anyone need any 70/75 T-6 0.40 Z angle?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:12 pm 
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...are immeasurable. I want to thank everybody who posted on this topic and really appreciate the insight, techniques, experience, and enthusiasm displayed here by all who participated.

This post is doing exactly what I intended it to do. The real limiting factor in operating WWII aircraft is the approaching technology gap that will be present- Old technology without a modern equivalent present to help people to learn to maintain warbirds. At some point in the future, we may all be the only people who are left to physically maintain this history. A few points about this post and any further posts on it.

1. John Beyl- your post was not off topic.

2. Think of the people who are watching this topic and have NOT participated in restoration/maintenance/operation of WWII aircraft. For those of you who fall in this category- make sure you see that every person who is a big bad A&P, IA, VAK (Volunteer Ass Kicker) at one point started somewhere. This is an inspiration call to learn how to work on aircraft. If farmboys and 5th grade educated people could do it in WWII, you can do it today.

3. I'd like to hear from the "new blood" out there that is potentially interested in getting involved. Why haven't you put your hat in the ring yet? What makes you nervous about getting involved hands-on? And what set of circumstances would have to be there for you to get involved?

4. Jase- My future fabric work will be on the UC-78 Tony is working on. A side note on UC-78's I went to see Jack Kosko today- for those who remember MAAM's old UC sitting behind the museum rotting- they are doing fabulous work and moving right along.

5. Repairman certificate- I was referring to the ones issued to those who build their own aircraft. I don't know the regs but could probably look them up. I believe that if you build your own experimental, you can apply and receive a repairman certificate for that specific airplane, and only the one you built (doesn't apply to others of the same type). I probably didn't say it right, but I was trying to describe the concept of doing a similar thing for people who restore their own certified aircraft- for example giving them a repairman certificate for Stinson L5 SN XXXX only after they have documented restoring THAT particular aircraft with a re-builder's log, photos, etc. such as people do when they build an experimental. Thoughts on that?

Thanks again, WIXer's- as usual you are doing a great job.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:57 am 
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This topic is fantastic. I am mainly outsider looking in on this subject, but quite interesting though.

Forgotten Field wrote:
3. I'd like to hear from the "new blood" out there that is potentially interested in getting involved. Why haven't you put your hat in the ring yet? What makes you nervous about getting involved hands-on? And what set of circumstances would have to be there for you to get involved?


Well I supposed I can help speak to this point. I would like to become more involved, and I am looking for that opportunity. But there are a few things that will prevent me from becoming a metal basher or wrench turner in the near future...

#1 - Career... Lots of O/T in my current occupation (which I enjoy very much), and the need to travel for my work which makes my availability unpredictable.

#2 - Distance... Not much in my immediate area. Regular travel by car to the nearest site could be difficult since my wife and I share one car.

#3 - Quite frankly breaking the ice is very difficult. If you introduce yourself to an organization that isn't large enough to have a formal HR group for managing volunteers, it can be difficult to get your foot in the door. Not quite sure why, but it isn't hard to guess with some of the points raised on this thread.

There are other points I could rant about, but that wouldn't be constructive.

Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:59 am 
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Quote:
#1 - Career...
#2 - Distance...
#3 - Quite frankly breaking the ice is very difficult. If you introduce yourself to an organization that isn't large enough to have a formal HR group for managing volunteers, it can be difficult to get your foot in the door. Not quite sure why, but it isn't hard to guess with some of the points raised on this thread.

There are other points I could rant about, but that wouldn't be constructive.



#1 No excuse, no excuse, no excuse... Yeah, kids, wives and actually making money get in the way of building airplanes. But bicycles could have gotten in the way of two brothers building a plane and it didn't so you have no excuse...

#2 Monthly/yearly volunteers are just as good as daily volunteers.

#3 and other un-constructive comments. Now we're getting somewhere. I've been in some of the hardest fraternal organizations to join and prosper in, and can say that the typical approach to vetting people can be abused (some people think junior people are not around to be trained, and only serve the menial chores list, and forget that someone at some point actually may have taken the time to personally teach them something). At some point, they have to let you be trusted. Another point is that I think we really would benefit from a 5-7 day course like the one Flying Tigers used to put on at Kissimmee which went over the basics of aircraft restoration. I'd like to hear from someone who attended/taught that course about if it was effective or not in training people up.

Mike, the only other thing I can say is that we need you and I hope you find a spot for doing what you're interested in. If you can't find a spot, make one at home and gather people around you to do the same thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:46 am 
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Mike, if your attendance is sporadic because of work/family commitments let that be known up front.

You wouldn't want to take on a particular job on a solo basis that you know you won't be around to finish. In other words help out on something that you can reasonably finish in a day or weekend. By doing those kind of tasks you might free up someone with greater skills to do a more technical job.

You would be amazed how helpful it is for someone with limited skills just to be there to help prep and mask prior to paint, clean parts when asked, etc...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:08 am 
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I am going to reply to Fogotten Field's reply when I have a few more minutes.

RickH wrote:
Mike, if your attendance is sporadic because of work/family commitments let that be known up front.


Absolutely. I would in no way want to piss someone off by letting them think I was flexible and could attend on a regular basis, then they find out the opposite when they need help. I would not want to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth in that way.

RickH wrote:
You would be amazed how helpful it is for someone with limited skills just to be there to help prep and mask prior to paint, clean parts when asked, etc...


This is raising a point that I don't think has been discussed here, although the thread is so long I may have missed something. I would like to hear from those that make use of volunteers. What is the best way to make use of volunteers? How you you evaluate skill when deciding to whom you are going to pair them up? How do you go about agreeing on work schedules? How do you keep them happy? How do you go about evaluating their performance, and upon what objective evidence do you decide to give them more tasks/responsiblities?

Another sub-subject is... How do you go about recruiting?

Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:29 am 
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mrhenniger wrote:
Another sub-subject is... How do you go about recruiting?
Here on the WIX! Anyone want to do some bead blasting? :)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:46 am 
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Bead blasting, sandblasting, priming, painting.... those are jobs for those who feel the need for instant gratification ! :lol:

Most of the things associated with rebuilding a long and tedious with no visible means of progress, not so with the above jobs !


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 1:52 am 
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This is also a response to Mike H's 3-point post

#1 John S. is correct: No excuses! I'm married (with children), 12-hour workday, mortgage, ad nauseum. This is your passion that we're talking about here! No excuses!

#2 I have lived in places close to organizations involved in historic aircraft preservation and in places not so close. Even if one does live close by, there is no guarantee that the organization will be a particularly volunteer-friendly one. The rising price of fuel makes long-distance commuting distasteful. For me the choice came down to acquiring my own project(s). The entry-level expenses for something like a static rebuild, cockpit project, instrument panel reconstruction or the like can be as involved or minimal as your budget and work space allow.

#3 I believe an effective way to "break the ice" as a new warbird rebuild project volunteer is to be able to walk through the hangar door with some mechanical/electrical/cosmetic repair skills already under your belt. Are there any technical colleges or trade schools nearby that offer classes in sheet metal work, welding, etc? Or how about a local chapter of the EAA? Now there's a group that's completely devoted to hands-on endeavors! Show up at the next scheduled meeting. Let it be known that you'd be interested in helping someone with their project aircraft (or, for that matter, maybe you just want to peek over a shoulder for now), and pick up some basic skills like doping fabric, riveting, or spraying clearcoat.

Now, other than convincing your spouse that this will be the greatest idea since buttered bread, how else may we help you get started? :wink:

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