The British "Horsa" glider

[JDK]

I am familiar with the Eben Emael attack, which was a precison operation, as you noted. Normandy, which was the context of my question, not so much.

Glad to hear you're familiar with that crucial (in airborne history) raid. Eben Emael was a 'Coup de Main' a particular type of precision operation; and as I said, essentially the same type of operation was, in fact, carried out during the night of D Day, by Major Howard's troops at Pegasus bridge. The principle, operation and utility and type of objective (seize hold and prevent enemy action) was the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_Bridge

Simplifying, the British were shocked and amazed by the Eban Emael operation, and decided they were going to have that capability. The developed it, and four years and one month later, they did do it themselves. That's a crucial point.

However around that was the result of the massive expansion of airborne forces (the make it bigger / do more) - nothing illustrates this better than the attempt to offer an air-landing brigade with its own tanks.

I suspect it had as much to do with a decision in 1942 (or whatever) to build a bunch of gliders. By June, 1944, we had gliders so we used 'em, even though they may not have been the ideal way to go to war in that campaign. Also, you didn't have to conduct parachute training for glider troops, so that reduced the number of broken ankles, the training necessary, and the demand for silk...

Not sure that's a viable hypothesis; I don't have data, but I've never read anything that suggest that the allied glider forces weren't an effective means of warfare; nor that paradrop or other alternatives would have or could have substituted. In Normandy, Market-Garden and the Rhine Crossing glider forces played decisive roles.

Another hypothetical example is that I suspect (data welcome) that landing gliders on Corregidor might've actually been more effective than paratroops; gliders could land in remarkably small spaces, and arrived 'aimed' much more than paratroops - I suspect (but have no evidence) that had gliders been available they'd have been used.

In Eban Emael and Pegasus Bridge an often overlooked advantage was that gliders arrived silently, effectively undetected, having been released from tow some miles away (At EE, roughly 20 miles, at 7,000 ft). Paradrop aircraft broadcast their presence by engine noise, and have to effectively be over the DZ. The expectation was that this kind of 'stealthy' surprise attack would be more used than it was in practice, where airborne 'carpets' became more the allied objective when the capability had grown to that level.

As to the saving in silk, an economic historian might like to run some numbers, but I don't think glider manufacture was a cheap alternative to parachutes. Data welcome! As to arrival injuries, there were a lot on gliders as well; grizzly ones such as when a jeep broke lose and crushed the passengers.
Regards,

[simon king]

The Horsa also had a part to play in the development of the Comet jetliner. Airspeed had become part of de Havilland company and a mock-up of the Comet nose was flown on a Horsa to test visibility/aerodynamics etc etc. I guess it was relatively easy to replace the hinged nose on a Horsa Mk II without major structural modifications - almost a "plug and play"

Funnily enough we took some jeeps to a British Legion event at the weekend and one of the people we talked to was a spritely octogenarian who had spent her war building Horsas and racing around the countryside in GI jeeps......

sk

[JDK]

The Germans dropped on Crete, for technical and doctrinal reasons, with only pistols, grenades and submachine guns, while the support weapons - machine guns, mortars and rifles - were dropped in separate canisters. The troops and canisters were scattered more than expected. Some of the weapon cannisters landed closer to the defending forces than the paratroopers, forcing them to fight their way to the weapons to fight their way to the objective.

I'm no expert on the Fallschirmjäger, but that's essentially my understanding - in early ops, they dropped armed ONLY with a pistol and a knife (!). This was driven primarily by the parachute which was a very different harness requiring a dive out of the aircraft, and a landing on hands and knees.

(There are reasonably reliable accounts of them dropping from Ju 52/3ms at low, slow speeds into snowbanks without chutes in Norway, in 1940!)

Putting the troops in gliders not only allows you to be sure of delivering a useful number of them to one spot, but also allows the individual soldiers to be more heavily armed and equipped.

Items like Jeeps (almost decisive at Arnheim in Market Garden) were only possible via gliders, while as shrike's said, mortars and other heavier weaponry also could not reliably be provided via paratroop drops.

The decision stemmed largely from lessons learned in the invasion of Crete.

That's a point. Crete was a debacle for the Fallschirmjäger but for numerous reasons, some of which, like local violent resistance, was not a factor that translated to other cases. Despite having heavier gliders (famously the biggest ever, the Me 323 'Gigant' and the Gotha 242) the Germans never really took advantage of them or developed their weaponry or tactics in practice as much as they could've. After Crete, famously, Hitler wouldn't let them.

However gliders were also used by the Germans for the capture of Mussolini, and a similar, but unsuccessful and tragic specialist raid by the British against the Heavy Water plant in Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freshman

Regards,

[Aeronut]

Items like Jeeps (almost decisive at Arnheim in Market Garden) were only possible via gliders, while as shrike's said, mortars and other heavier weaponry also could not reliably be provided via paratroop drops.

By the middle of 1944 Britain had developed and put into service the Crash Pan technique for the airdrop of Jeeps, Six pounder Anti Tank guns and 75mm Pack Howitzers by parachute from the bomb bays of Halifax bombers. These heavy drop items were dropped along with the SAS and Jedburgh Teams around D-Day. The Crash Pan method survived until the Suez Invasion in 1956 when its replacement couldn't be used as the only aircarft cleared to drop it were USAF C-119 and America refused to take part in that conflict.

The one glider load that scared the Germans at Arnhem was the 17 Pounder Anti Tank Gun and Morris Gun Tractor carried as a single load in the Hamilcar. Unfortunately half of the Hamilcars carrying 17 Pounders turned over on landing resulting in the loss of the guns (and the crews).

[JDK]

Again, I'm not claiming any particular expertise, I wasn't aware the slung loads were in use in June 44. Also a little puzzled as I understood the Hastings was equipped in the 50s to carry crash pan load.

Regards

[gliderman1]

Someone posted that the CG-4A was shipped in three crates--should be five crates. All five crates contained approximately 10,000 board feet of lumber which outweighed the glider by more than 16,000 pounds.

Not sure about British parachutes, but all parachutes contracted by the US after Jan 1, 1943 were made of nylon. The US used nylon line for CG-4A gliders. The Horsa gliders were flown by the US only in Normandy. I believe they used the British 3 inch circumference Hemp line for the Horsa but I am not 100% sure.

I don't know about the Crash Pan drop system, but in 1942-43 at Wright Field in Ohio the US, for the British, developed a 4 parachute pack system for dropping the Weasel under-slung on a bomber. The chutes failed on the first drop and the Weasel was smashed.

The Fighting Falcon was not just an exhibition glider. One of the two Fighting Falcon gliders was used as the lead glider in the Chicago mission on Normandy, D-Day morning. The original Fighting Falcon was flown, same mission, in position #45. The Fighting Falcon logo and 101st A/B Screaming Eagle fabric of the lead glider are in the BGen Don F. Pratt museum at Ft Campbell, KY.

[JDK]

Hi Aeronut, you're right that the successor couldn't be used, my misreading, but jeeps were dropped at Suez. To clarify:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost ... stcount=29

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history- ... ost6202212

[Aeronut]

I know its getting away from the Horsa but Britain's heavydrop systems couldn't have happened without the trefoil parachute system developed for the Airborne Lifeboat, which it was realised could be adapted for the drop of vehicles onto land.
The Suez Jeeps used crash pans obtained from the Army Air Transport Development Centre's 'museum' at RAF Old Sarum, as Heavy drop was by then using the Medium Stressed Platforms (MSP) from the C-119 prior to service release of the Blackburn Beverley. The MSP is still in service!
Getting Back to the Horsa, the AATDC's museum also contained a Horsa and a Hamilcar at one time.

[JDK]

Getting Back to the Horsa, the AATDC's museum also contained a Horsa and a Hamilcar at one time.

Fascinating. Do you know when? My impression was that the Horsa (and other British gliders) were never 'preserved' as such, but relics were found later when preservation got going. The only Hamilcar surviving is a part-reconstruction at the Army Air Corps Museum, IIRC?

[Aeronut]

IIRC the Old sarum gliders were burnt 1960ish.
There are in fact 2 Hamilcar fuselage sections surviving. The Museum of Army Flying at Middle Wallop have restored theirs with a mocked up centre section of wing. The other is unrestored and is on display at the Tank Museum in Bovington, Dorset. I believe both fuselages came from the same place, a farm near RAF Lyneham where they had been used as tractor stores.

[CDF]

Hitler wouldn't let them.

Unternehmen Rösselsprung
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7637

Gliders and a Para drop in an attempt (authors italics) to capture Tito

[Steve Nelson]

The Fighting Falcon was not just an exhibition glider. One of the two Fighting Falcon gliders was used as the lead glider in the Chicago mission on Normandy, D-Day morning. The original Fighting Falcon was flown, same mission, in position #45. The Fighting Falcon logo and 101st A/B Screaming Eagle fabric of the lead glider are in the BGen Don F. Pratt museum at Ft Campbell, KY.

I think that was part of the reason the Air Zoo chose those markings, besides the local connection of course. I had always heard that Gen. Pratt was killed in the Fighting Falcon. The only reason I didn't mention it in my post was because according to Wiki he switched to a different glider before the drop (which was painted with the Fighting Falcon logo) and the actual FF was moved back in the formation.

SN

[JDK]

Hitler wouldn't let them.

Unternehmen Rösselsprung
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7637

Gliders and a Para drop in an attempt (authors italics) to capture Tito

CDF, it's getting tiresome your attempts to show people getting things 'wrong', in this case by selectively quoting four words of mine out of context.

Does another standard glider & paratroop operation after Crete contradict what I said? (Which was, now underlined for emphasis: "Despite having heavier gliders (famously the biggest ever, the Me 323 'Gigant' and the Gotha 242) the Germans never really took advantage of them or developed their weaponry or tactics in practice as much as they could've. After Crete, famously, Hitler wouldn't let them.") No it does not.

Had you offered your post as a contribution to the discussion in a very interesting thread, that would have been much appreciated by me, among, no doubt, others. It is a worthy contribution to the thread to point out that - despite much writing on the area - the Germans did undertake a few airborne operations after Crete.

But another example of web trawling and posting other people's work and research simply to snipe from anonymity at others who contribute their own research and views on WIX? Tiresome.

You find some fascinating stuff. If you could just post that, it'd be great.

Thanks.

[CDF]

Hitler wouldn't let them.

Unternehmen Rösselsprung
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=7637

Gliders and a Para drop in an attempt (authors italics) to capture Tito

CDF, it's getting tiresome your attempts to show people getting things 'wrong', in this case by selectively quoting four words of mine out of context.

Does another standard glider & paratroop operation after Crete contradict what I said? (Which was, now underlined for emphasis: "Despite having heavier gliders (famously the biggest ever, the Me 323 'Gigant' and the Gotha 242) the Germans never really took advantage of them or developed their weaponry or tactics in practice as much as they could've. After Crete, famously, Hitler wouldn't let them.") No it does not.

Had you offered your post as a contribution to the discussion in a very interesting thread, that would have been much appreciated by me, among, no doubt, others. It is a worthy contribution to the thread to point out that - despite much writing on the area - the Germans did undertake a few airborne operations after Crete.

But another example of web trawling and posting other people's work and research simply to snipe from anonymity at others who contribute their own research and views on WIX? Tiresome.

You find some fascinating stuff. If you could just post that, it'd be great.

Thanks.

Tut tut - Play the ball not the man......

You stated grofaz ('Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten' - Greatest War Leader of All Time as stated by German servicement at the time) didn't use FJR after Crete

They were

In fact they did use Gliders AND JU52's after 1941 on the Eastern, southern and western fronts, so if you in fact you can offer anything offer than broad generalizations and wikipedia links in support of your so called position I'd be very welcome

Regards

[JDK]

I think you're telling us more than you might like to with your choice of words.

You stated grofaz ('Größter Feldherr aller Zeiten' - Greatest War Leader of All Time as stated by German servicement at the time) didn't use FJR after Crete

And for the third time, no, I didn't.

If you can't understand I stated that the Germans did not develop their airborne forces as much as they could have with the heavy gliders they had (and that Hitler wouldn't let them do so) that's your problem.

In fact they did use Gliders AND JU52's after 1941 on the Eastern, southern and western fronts, so if you in fact you can offer anything offer than broad generalizations and wikipedia links in support of your so called position I'd be very welcome

I clearly stated they undertook a glider attack (Ju 52/3ms and DFS 230s) for the rescue of Mussolini earlier in the thread, so I think I'd made it clear they had used gliders subsequent to Crete.

It's generally recognised that after Crete Hitler was not prepared to used the Fallschirmjäger in any more major airborne operations. I have no interest in convincing you or not.

For what it's worth, I use Wikipedia as it's a consistent online reference - the trick is to check it's footnoting or against other sources. My 40 shelf metres of leather-smelling books in the study around me aren't something I can share online, but are what I use. Arguing the toss about the detail, or which references are used for the exceptions is pointless, if you don't actually get what's written already, correct. And I'm not being precious about ever being wrong - I've already pointed out the errors I've made in this thread.

I'll like to leave your weird focus on Hitler out of the discussion, and you might like to do so too.

Meanwhile back on topic...