FW-190, the best "rolling" fighter?
Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:00 am
hi there,
Came across this chart in the web... http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/ ... 868/42.gif
It shows that the FW-190 had the best roll rate of all the fighters in world war II.
Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
I was quite surprised that the "clipped wing" spitfire came in second - all this time I thought that the mustang had the best roll. (other than the focke-wulf)
cheers!
Came across this chart in the web... http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1947/ ... 868/42.gif
It shows that the FW-190 had the best roll rate of all the fighters in world war II.
Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
I was quite surprised that the "clipped wing" spitfire came in second - all this time I thought that the mustang had the best roll. (other than the focke-wulf)
cheers!
Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:48 am
I would agree with that statement based on the chart, but in a practical sense it all depends on what speed you are at. It looks like the clipped wing Spitfire was better than the 190 below 220 mph, and the P-51B was better above 360 mph. And this chart is at 10,000 feet. What happens at 2,500 feet or 25,000 feet? Was the roll rate the same for the 190A and 190D?difenbaker wrote:It shows that the FW-190 had the best roll rate of all the fighters in world war II.
Would you agree or disagree with that statement?
This chart also doesn't tell you the stick force. I suspect the P-51 had much lower stick forces at high speeds.
Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:17 pm
I know I've read time and again about how exceptional the Corsair's roll rate was, and that the ailerons were the 'pride and joy' of the factory, and they even tested the aileron shape out on the F6F to see if they could duplicate the success of the ailerons on the Corsair and carry it over to the Hellcat, but apparently it did'nt work....another article I read stated that the Roll rate of the Corsair was only later in the war matched by the BOOSTED ailerons on the late model P-38's...
I notice there is no line on the chart for the Corsair series, so could'nt tell you how it matches up with the other fighters on the chart....
M
I notice there is no line on the chart for the Corsair series, so could'nt tell you how it matches up with the other fighters on the chart....
M
Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:11 am
Ooops! 
Last edited by Bradburger on Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:25 am
Interesting subject and always good for a debate! 
As an occasional poster on the old WIX forums & a 'Lurker' here, I thought it's about time I made my first post!
As someone who has an interest in doing flight models for MS Flight Simulator, this stuff is always useful and interesting to me!
It would be nice to have known the exact marks & models used in the test but it at least gives us an idea of just how good at rolling they were and it would also be intersting to see if there is any data around that shows the roll rates at lower altitudes. Btw, the chart says (at the bottom) that the stick force applied during tests was 50lbs.
Whilst the boosted aileron P-38 is reputed to have had the best roll rate of any fighter of WWII, the data I've seen tends to suggest otherwise. I have a copy of an original Lockheed roll rate graph for a P38L with the boosted ailerons and it's max roll rate is shown as 98 DPS 450 MPH @ 10000ft.
I also have one which shows it up against a P38J-10 with non boosted ones (plus a P51B & FW190 - looks to be the same data as the NACA graph) and it's max roll rate was recorded as 72 DPS @ 290 MPH. Although this graph doesn't mention the heights of the tests (or stick forces), it's assumed to at 10000ft as the data for the L matches that of the original Lockheed document.
The Corsair did indeed have a very good roll rate and the later versions with the servo tabs were very light indeed and there was infact a limit to full aileron deflection imposed at 300kts. As one modern Warbird pilot said in an article on flying the Corsair, "On most aircraft, you'd be lucky to get on ANY aileron at this speed let alone go to to the stops"!
One very good source for this kind of data is the excellent book 'Americas' Hundred Thousand' by Francis H. Dean and for the Corsair, it shows the highest rate as 90 DPS @ 290 MPH (IAS) for an F4U-1D/FG1-D, although the graph stops here so it may well have been higher!
Another aircraft that excelled in this area was the P40. Ray Hanna says it's has lovely ailerons and a good roll rate to match, and this seems to have been the same view as most wartime pilots too. AMHT shows roll rate data for an early model P40 (H81) peaking at 135 DPS @ 360 MPH (IAS) whilst interestingly, the data for the P40F (as seen in the NACA Graph) is much lower - 95 DPS @ 300 MPH (IAS)!
Another aircraft that was supposedly a good rolling one was the Yak3/9 series. Whilst I don't have any data on their rolling capablities, the calculated roll rates for the Flight Models I've done seem to back this.
I wonder if anyone on this forum has this data?
Cheers
Paul
As an occasional poster on the old WIX forums & a 'Lurker' here, I thought it's about time I made my first post!
As someone who has an interest in doing flight models for MS Flight Simulator, this stuff is always useful and interesting to me!
It would be nice to have known the exact marks & models used in the test but it at least gives us an idea of just how good at rolling they were and it would also be intersting to see if there is any data around that shows the roll rates at lower altitudes. Btw, the chart says (at the bottom) that the stick force applied during tests was 50lbs.
Whilst the boosted aileron P-38 is reputed to have had the best roll rate of any fighter of WWII, the data I've seen tends to suggest otherwise. I have a copy of an original Lockheed roll rate graph for a P38L with the boosted ailerons and it's max roll rate is shown as 98 DPS 450 MPH @ 10000ft.
I also have one which shows it up against a P38J-10 with non boosted ones (plus a P51B & FW190 - looks to be the same data as the NACA graph) and it's max roll rate was recorded as 72 DPS @ 290 MPH. Although this graph doesn't mention the heights of the tests (or stick forces), it's assumed to at 10000ft as the data for the L matches that of the original Lockheed document.
The Corsair did indeed have a very good roll rate and the later versions with the servo tabs were very light indeed and there was infact a limit to full aileron deflection imposed at 300kts. As one modern Warbird pilot said in an article on flying the Corsair, "On most aircraft, you'd be lucky to get on ANY aileron at this speed let alone go to to the stops"!
One very good source for this kind of data is the excellent book 'Americas' Hundred Thousand' by Francis H. Dean and for the Corsair, it shows the highest rate as 90 DPS @ 290 MPH (IAS) for an F4U-1D/FG1-D, although the graph stops here so it may well have been higher!
Another aircraft that excelled in this area was the P40. Ray Hanna says it's has lovely ailerons and a good roll rate to match, and this seems to have been the same view as most wartime pilots too. AMHT shows roll rate data for an early model P40 (H81) peaking at 135 DPS @ 360 MPH (IAS) whilst interestingly, the data for the P40F (as seen in the NACA Graph) is much lower - 95 DPS @ 300 MPH (IAS)!
Another aircraft that was supposedly a good rolling one was the Yak3/9 series. Whilst I don't have any data on their rolling capablities, the calculated roll rates for the Flight Models I've done seem to back this.
I wonder if anyone on this forum has this data?
Cheers
Paul
Last edited by Bradburger on Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:26 am
One very good source for ths data is the excellent book 'Americas' Hundred Thousand' by Francis H. Dean and it shows the highest rate as 90 DPS @ 290 MPH (IAS) for an F4U-1D/FG1-D, although the graph stops here so it may well have been higher!
Heya Brad
I have to agree about 'Americas Hundred Thousand'. It's a must have item for any hardcore warbird enthusiast - a virtual bible of test data and historical facts covering in extreme detail the massive industrial output of fighter aircraft in the US during WWII. It includes exploded views, details of systems, historical timelines, graphs and essays on the technical and performance comparisons between the various aircraft, etc. I can't begin to imagine how Francis H. Dean pulled all the data together for this 600+ page book.
Anyway, it's pricey but well worth the investment for anyone interested in obtaining a top notch reference source for US fighters.
Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:05 am
Polikarpov I-16 anyone?
Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:51 am
Here is a page containing info about tests between F4U, 190, F6F etc.
http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id3.htm
Again this page has lots of other graphs but it does not have roll rate graph, just a short mention of compared roll rates. Here is a short quote: FW190 and Corsair were superior to the Hellcat, the FW190 and Corsair were about equal in rate of roll.
I am also interested in flight simulators, mostly Pacific Fighters at the moment, because of F4U... And actually the reason I am looking for exact info is that in Pacific Fighters the F4U's roll rate is very slow compared to FW190. And I try to convince mr Maddox to look into this, but before he does anything he wants to see exact information/figures about this.
Bradburger, that is 90 degrees per second? Are you sure it does not say douple this to get correct value
Or could that be with a loadout? Just thinking about the quote from Guytons book saying over 180 DPS and that quote above saying FW190 and F4U were about equal. That GIF on the other page and quote above would mean that F4U would roll at least 160 DPS. Could I bother you guys to check this for me, that Americas onhundred thousand is about 80€, if you are lucky enough to get one.
Chris
http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id3.htm
Again this page has lots of other graphs but it does not have roll rate graph, just a short mention of compared roll rates. Here is a short quote: FW190 and Corsair were superior to the Hellcat, the FW190 and Corsair were about equal in rate of roll.
Bradburger wrote:As someone who has an interest in doing flight models for MS Flight Simulator, this stuff is always useful and interesting to me!
The Corsair did indeed have a very good roll rate and the later versions with the servo tabs were very light indeed and there was infact a limit to full aileron deflection imposed at 300kts. As one modern Warbird pilot said in an article on flying the Corsair, "On most aircraft, you'd be lucky to get on ANY aileron at this speed let alone go to to the stops"!
One very good source for this kind of data is the excellent book 'Americas' Hundred Thousand' by Francis H. Dean and for the Corsair, it shows the highest rate as 90 DPS @ 290 MPH (IAS) for an F4U-1D/FG1-D, although the graph stops here so it may well have been higher!
I am also interested in flight simulators, mostly Pacific Fighters at the moment, because of F4U... And actually the reason I am looking for exact info is that in Pacific Fighters the F4U's roll rate is very slow compared to FW190. And I try to convince mr Maddox to look into this, but before he does anything he wants to see exact information/figures about this.
Bradburger, that is 90 degrees per second? Are you sure it does not say douple this to get correct value
Or could that be with a loadout? Just thinking about the quote from Guytons book saying over 180 DPS and that quote above saying FW190 and F4U were about equal. That GIF on the other page and quote above would mean that F4U would roll at least 160 DPS. Could I bother you guys to check this for me, that Americas onhundred thousand is about 80€, if you are lucky enough to get one.
Chris
Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:57 pm
TEXANTOMCAT wrote:Polikarpov I-16 anyone?
Roll out the barrel...
Roll
Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:27 pm
I hope no one laughs but I have read in more than one place that the P-40 had the fastest roll rate of all WWII fighters.