Paul Allen at HMS Hood Wreck ...

bombadier29 · **Joined:** Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:17 pm **Posts:** 272

Mark Allen M wrote:

bombadier29 wrote:

Sounds a lot like grave robbing to me.

I have a serious question. At what point does grave robbing become archeology?

Highly unlikely the case here and a quick google search can help answer your serious question.

"Archaeology doesn't always mean the contents of the grave are taken away. That which investigates, records, but leaves in place never becomes grave robbing. Depends on the motive. Grave robbing is done so that the contents are sold for money and no research or intellectual capital is generated". And more importantly if the vast majority of decendents of a sunken ship's crew in this case give full support for any type of recovery there would be little concern for robbery.

Much more to read on your question on the link below as well as many other forum discussions if your interested, as well as good information with the HMS Hood Association.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/sho ... p?t=543415

http://www.hmshood.com/

It still looks to me like they are digging through the grave of 1,415 men to get a souvenier. This clearly isn't archeology, it's just plain grave robbing.

Howard Carter emptying out King Tut's tomb started out as archeology, it sure didn't end that way.

Enemy Ace · **Posted:** Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:10 pm

Think of it this way: The bell will be a tangible part of the ship, that the men aboard heard every day. That same Artifact that they heard, we will be able to see and hear again, that we never forget them.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:16 pm

Read what it says- the bell is easily accessible and removing it doesn't disturb the wreck at all. I think you are going a bit overboard (pardon the pun) with the grave robbing angle.
Grave robbers don't advertise what they are doing and have an ebay account.

If it is sanctioned by the descendants of the crew and the Royal Navy as a tangible memorial to honour the fallen it is a worthy project.

Dave

Jollygreenslugg · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:07 am

bombadier29 wrote:

It still looks to me like they are digging through the grave of 1,415 men to get a souvenier. This clearly isn't archeology, it's just plain grave robbing.

Your shrieks of indignation are misplaced. There's no "digging through the grave", an item in clear view is being picked up from the sea bed to become a memorial to the dead, amongst the living. It's no more "grave robbing" than the MoD and Royal Navy-supported expedition of 2002, when the ship's bell from the HMS Prince of Wales was recovered for a memorial display. The 2002 expedition was supported and encouraged by the Force Z Survivors Association. If it's good enough for survivors of the sinking to have their ship's bell recovered, then I think your self-righteous indignation is ill-informed grandstanding.

A man has put his own money forward to do something good. This isn't a bad thing.

Cheers,
Matt

CDF · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:46 am

JohnB wrote:

peter wrote:

And why are they doing this???

Because the MoD won't ...and can't afford to even if they wanted to.

Alternatively I can't really see a Crown department (MoD) being in breach of an Act of Parliament (Protection of Military Remains Act of 1986) by disturbing a controlled site (HMS Hood).

I agree with those that say the site should remain undisturbed. They left the ships bell of AHS Centaur well alone when that wreck was found in 2009.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7909

"The Government has licensed the recovery of the bell - as well as providing a memorial, the recovery will prevent it being taken by any illegal operation for personal gain, the MoD spokesman said"

As Dave said, read the article.

DaveM2 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:00 am

CDF wrote:

I agree with those that say the site should remain undisturbed. They left the ships bell of AHS Centaur well alone when that wreck was found in 2009.

Was there a request by crew descendants to have it recovered as a memorial? If so was it denied?

CDF · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:07 am

DaveM2 wrote:

Was there a request by crew descendants to have it recovered as a memorial? If so was it denied?

As far as I am aware it was something that wasn't even contemplated, its classed as a wargrave and protected under Historic Shipwrecks Act 1976 .

Jollygreenslugg · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:41 am

The AHS Centaur is an Australian ship, in Australian waters, protected under Australian legislation.

The Hood is a different story.

Cheers,
Matt

peter · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:08 am

mixed feelings about this but at least they have not had to disturb the wreck to remove the bell and it sounds like it is going to a good home...

k5083 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:12 am

Mark Allen M wrote:

JohnB wrote:

In our current political climate with class warfare being offered by various politicians, it's good to see another act where the well-off fund projects that others can't or governments won't.
Mr. Weeks, Mr. Jackson, Mr Yeagen, Mr. Allen all come to mind in the aviation world alone.
Think of that the next time some "have not" want's to behead the rich.

+1 ... I applaud certain members of the 1% as long as you've earned it, don't flaunt it and don't foolishly waste it on garbage.

+2! Out of all the ways that billions of dollars could benefit the world, I can't think of anything more useful and non-flaunty than taking your (13th biggest in the world) yacht to recover a corroded ship's bell, or for that matter collecting old airplanes.

August

Sutts · **Joined:** Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:16 pm **Posts:** 48

I have a relative who was lost on the Hood. Personally I don't see this as grave robbing unless it was just a commercial venture for profit

If the bell goes on public display then it's doing a good job reminding this pampered generation of the nightmare our grandparent's lived through and the sacrifices that were made for us.

I think Paul Allen is doing great things and he has my support.

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7909

k5083 wrote:

Mark Allen M wrote:

JohnB wrote:

In our current political climate with class warfare being offered by various politicians, it's good to see another act where the well-off fund projects that others can't or governments won't.
Mr. Weeks, Mr. Jackson, Mr Yeagen, Mr. Allen all come to mind in the aviation world alone.
Think of that the next time some "have not" want's to behead the rich.

+1 ... I applaud certain members of the 1% as long as you've earned it, don't flaunt it and don't foolishly waste it on garbage.

+2! Out of all the ways that billions of dollars could benefit the world, I can't think of anything more useful and non-flaunty than taking your (13th biggest in the world) yacht to recover a corroded ship's bell, or for that matter collecting old airplanes.

August

Oh but August certainly a fellow like P Allen can every now and then take a break from his busy Philanthropy schedule and go sail on this yacht to somewhere exotic, like the North Atlantic and do a little fishing. :wink:

k5083 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:25 pm

Indeed. And Mr Allen has funded enough medical research and such that his karmic account balance is in good shape as far as I'm concerned. It was just amusing to read the comments about flaunting wealth or wasting his money foolishly when most ordinary folks, i.e. those not obsessed with warbirds, military history, or honoring war dead, probably regard both this expedition and his warbird collecting as exactly that.

August

Mark Allen M · **Joined:** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:48 pm **Posts:** 7909

k5083 wrote:

Indeed. And Mr Allen has funded enough medical research and such that his karmic account balance is in good shape as far as I'm concerned. It was just amusing to read the comments about flaunting wealth or wasting his money foolishly when most ordinary folks, i.e. those not obsessed with warbirds, military history, or honoring war dead, probably regard both this expedition and his warbird collecting as exactly that.

August

+1

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