Authentic Mustang?

[ACMech]

I read somewhere that this aircraft is supposed to be the most authentic restoration of a P-51 out there? Looks real nice, however I wonder how many others are restored close to authentic?

[The Inspector]

FHC's 472364 EPPUPA EPOPS was restored down to duplicating the formulation of the parts stamps ink and correct, cotton wrapped new wiring harnesses by our own Taigh Ramey-all it took was Paul Allens money

[ACMech]

Any pictures of it?

[JohnTerrell]

"Twilight Tear" 44-63864 (N251L), "Upupa Epops" 44-72364 (N723FH), and "Happy Jack's Go Buggy" 44-74452 (N74190) are at the top of the list (for P-51D's), which continues on from there.

If you don't like polished metal, that's too bad, but "Twilight Tear" is absolutely incredible in its level of authentic to original early-model P-51D-20-NA (that it is) configuration when you take a look anywhere inside - the only one of its kind in that category. "Upupa Epops" is just as correctly restored to late-model P-51D-20-NA (that it is) configuration, and again is the only one of its kind in that type of category.

Last edited by JohnTerrell on Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[C VEICH]

Any pictures of it?

A Google image search will find many pics of "Upupa Epops".

[JohnTerrell]

Re: "Twilight Tear" 44-63864 (N251L), "Upupa Epops" 44-72364 (N723FH), and "Happy Jack's Go Buggy" 44-74452 (N74190) are at the top of the list (as far as P-51D's go), which continues on from there...

That's not to forget so many other extremely or very stock Mustang restorations out there. I'm very fond of the level of "authenticness"/"stock-completeness" of examples like both of the airworthy A-36A's (which are also just about as perfect as you are likely to get), the P-51B/C's "Ina the Macon Belle", "Princess Elizabeth", and "Impatient Virgin", the P-51D's "Little Rebel", "Jumpin Jacques", "Hell-Er Bust", "Sweet and Lovely", "Cripes A' Mighty" and "Cripes A' Mighty 3rd", "Geraldine", 44-75024, NACA 127, "Little Horse", "Janie" and "Marinell", and of course the F-6D "Lil' Margaret"...it can go on. And this of course is just in regards to the amount of original WWII-era hardware and stock configuration that is present, with examples becoming more complete with, as "The Inspector" has noted, all of the original fine details recreated, like inspection stamps and marks, stencils and placards restored or reproduced with all of the original fonts, original WWII-era fittings, and other authentic to the era touches (such as original 1940's era Alcoa and Reynolds aluminum watermarks being recreated on the skins - something that was really pioneered with the restoration of "Happy Jack's Go Buggy", and has been seen on many other restorations since, both completed and in process). This of course has no bearing on the level of quality of restoration/status seen in so many more of the Mustangs out there - with none of it to say that they aren't interesting, gorgeous, aircraft, let alone superbly restored and great flyers.

[JohnB]

It looks like "Happy Jack's.." has the paper drop tanks.
Where did they get those?

[Ken]

Of course, UE has the distinction of being the original airplane.

Many of these details already hashed out here:

http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.o ... p?p=228457

[JohnTerrell]

Bob Baker acquired an original example (108-gal type - the most common type of paper tank used during the war - of course all of them limited to England), several years ago (only a few known left to survive), and had a perfect fiberlgass copy made of it (to the point that you couldn't tell them apart even standing by them). He had the tanks fitted to his P-51D "Sweet and Lovely" at Oshkosh 2004 (http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?survi ... l/44-73279), when it won Grand Champion. Sometime later, more fiberglass copies were made, and that is what you see fitted to "Happy Jack's Go Buggy". The fiberglass tanks were done by one of Jack Roush's companies (which have also produced other plastic/fibergalss replica items for Mustangs and other warbirds). Roush's B-model "Old Crow" has also sometimes sported a set of copies as well (http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?image ... 19/5151/38). Outside of Oshkosh 2008 when "HJGB" debuted, with the tanks fitted, it could also be seen sporting the tanks at the Pensacola air show late last year (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjglowacki/6361228319/). Again, unless you were to know better, or were to look at them inside, you can't tell them apart from the original, as because of the mould process, they have all of the same detail and imperfections as the original unit (and they won't turn to mush after being exposed to liquids for too long like the originals would).

Since the point in time that the thread Ken links to was made, "Twilight Tear" has come on the scene, and as I mentioned earlier, is incredible when you delve into the details of that aircraft. These restorations, when completed, will surely be joining the discussion as well (amongst others):

http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?survi ... l/44-63675
http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?survi ... l/44-63577
http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?survi ... l/44-72059

[ACMech]

This is a very nice airframe for sure

[Speedy]

I was really impressed with Little Rebel at Oshkosh this year. First time I had seen that airframe...and Hacker pointed out where the 'sealant' had been painted on the rivet lines on the fuselage and gear doors. That was a 'wow' moment.

As much as I have a soft-spot for some of the civilan and pseudo-warbird schemes of the 70's and 80's (my warbird-informative years), seeing the quality of where they are today is just amazing. The attention to detail is mind-boggling. I'd just like to see the owners let them get 'war dirty'. I know it's not practical, but...it's all still really cool.

[JohnTerrell]

Isn't that cool, Speedy! "Upupa Epops", "Happy Jack's Go Buggy", and "Little Rebel" have that detail. It isn't actually where the rivets are, but where the spot welds are. When spot welding is done, you have to make sure the aluminum is absolutely clean, and in order to do this quickly, they simply brushed on acid which etched the metal, leaving behind the bright lines, and then performed the spot welding. Sometimes these lines can be easily seen in period WWII photos, especially from the factory. At other times, instead of just applying the acid where only the spot welds were going to be, the entire panel was treated (such as many of the cowl panels), due to the amount of spot welds, leaving behind a varied/pattern look to the fuselage panels.

If you look at the Flying Heritage Collection P-47, you can also see lines of acid etching on the bare metal.

While Bob Baker's "Sweet and Lovely" has gotten a lot of attention from the photographers over the years, my favorite of his two is "Little Rebel". A few photos of mine from 2010 and 2011. On "Little Rebel", I believe all of the rivets are even correct to the period spec (at least they appear so), as are all of the lock nuts and bolts. Just about the only thing it's lacking is the fuselage tank and original radio/battery in the back. It really looks the part.

[JohnTerrell]

Though I still have a soft spot for "Sweet and Lovely" as well.



And the one that perhaps started the whole trend towards working to restore them to complete stock/original configuration:

[JDK]

I read somewhere that this aircraft is supposed to be the most authentic restoration of a P-51 out there? Looks real nice, however I wonder how many others are restored close to authentic?

Think it's important to note that the question isn't an "either / or", but a sliding scale of more original / authentic or less.

When you consider that 'authentic' used to mean having the point of the star in the star and bar pointing upwards, it's also evident that there has been an ongoing process of standards and expectations being raised over the last half-century. A corollary of that is the arrogance of the present; we like to pat ourselves on the back that today's standards are a) better than yesterdays (they often are, but not always); and b) that we operate on some plateau of superiority, not realising that today's wonderful will be tomorrow's not so great.

Thirdly, if it flies, there will always be compromises from originality. While there's been wonderful work on adding widgets and cosmetic details as well as better and more original restorations, in the near future we may well see an Oshkosh contender trucked in because it's too authentic, due to its originality, to fly. That is what national museum collections are supposed to be achieving anyway, but too often don't.

Just a few thoughts...

[gregv]

44-84900 / N51YZ seems to be quite authentic, albeit in its guise as used by NACA:

http://www.mustangsmustangs.com/p-51/p5 ... 4900.shtml

http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p51regis ... 84900.html

greg v.