Re: Authentic Mustang?
Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:17 am
+1 to James, as usual.
It's fun to read the gushes in old issues of AC or Sport Av, "This has to be the ultimate restoration, it can't get any better than this." Oh yes it can. But the top shelf certainly has come a long way.
OTOH great work stands the test of time. The 1976 Grand Champ was on the field at Oshkosh, looking just like it did when it won the prize, which for my money is very nice indeed. Yes, it is an incorrect AVG paint scheme on a P-40E -- although still a better AVG paint scheme than has been put on several much more recently restored P-40s that I can think of -- and there is no pretense of a stock cockpit etc., but it's still a fine machine that I'm always delighted to see.
August
It's fun to read the gushes in old issues of AC or Sport Av, "This has to be the ultimate restoration, it can't get any better than this." Oh yes it can. But the top shelf certainly has come a long way.
OTOH great work stands the test of time. The 1976 Grand Champ was on the field at Oshkosh, looking just like it did when it won the prize, which for my money is very nice indeed. Yes, it is an incorrect AVG paint scheme on a P-40E -- although still a better AVG paint scheme than has been put on several much more recently restored P-40s that I can think of -- and there is no pretense of a stock cockpit etc., but it's still a fine machine that I'm always delighted to see.
August
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:17 am
Despite the fact that I could look at UE or HJGB all day, I love when WIX exposes the lesser known airplanes like the P-51 at the War Eagles Air Museum:
viewtopic.php?p=448376
viewtopic.php?p=448376
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:30 am
For the most original/authentic (and untouched) examples around, they aren't flyers.
For instance, P-51D-25-NA 44-73349, that can be seen on display at the Swiss Air Force Museum, is one of the most untouched and still fully complete P-51D's left, remaining still much as it was in early 1945. With only a few very subtle modifications done to the aircraft while in Swiss service, it has otherwise remained as it was since original manufacture, with everything still all there. When you look into the cockpit, behind the access panels, and up into the gear wells, the original paint and patchwork of primer finishes are still intact from their original factory application. A tremendous resource.
Similarly is P-51D-30-NA 44-74939, on display at the Smithsonian, which after only just over 200 hrs on the clock, was provided to the NASM in the late 40's, where it has remained in preserved state (with the exception of the exterior markings). Another great resource, but, like many other survivors, is a variant of the P-51D that was manufactured too late to see service in WWII, and thus does not completely reflect the same exact configuration of a P-51D that served during the war.
The P-51K-10-NT's, 44-12125 at the Netherlands AF Museum, and 44-12116 at the Crawford Museum, although missing items here and there, are also untouched and original in their internal details from their original manufacture. These particular examples also still retain their fabric elevators, being as early production models as they are.
(And just a quick unique detail/fact that many may have not noted before: The restored P-51K-10-NT 44-12016 "Fragile But Agile" airframe, had fabric elevators on it all the way up until its recent restoration at Fighter Rebuilders that started in 2007, where it received the later metal-covered elevators. The fabric elevators, for which it had, is a detail that is correct to the P-51K-10-NT. It is not a correct detail for a P-51D-20-NA, that it was being claimed to be while it was being advertised as the original "Twilight Tear", as all P-51D-20-NA's were manufactured with metal elevators.)
One of the unique things to mention too about examples like the restored "Upupa Epops", and now "Twilight Tear" as well, compared with other restorations, is that the internal details are correct to examples that did see service in WWII, and are also correct configurations to the production models they are, coming on the scene in late 1944 (TT) and early 1945 (UE). Both have also done what they can to preserve as much of the interior of the aircraft as being completely authentic as possible, while still being able to operate in today's aviation environment, and really taking it just about to the extreme. On "Upupa Epops", the avionics are confined to two simple gauges, fitted within a bracket that simply attaches onto a factory stock panel on the right wall, and utilizes the already present factory stock mounting holes that were provided for the installation of the SCR-695 controls, that weren't fitted in the cockpit on this and all other European and most Pacific-based examples, anyway. When this, already small, avionics bracket is removed, the cockpit is completely stock, fore and aft (the FHC P-47 and B-25 are also setup this way, with the same basic avionics, which has resulted in nothing being removed/changed from the original aircraft - the Collings Foundation A-36 is also setup quite the same). Similarly, on "Twilight Tear", the few modern avionics that are installed, are hidden in the center and behind the otherwise stock instrument panel, in only the area/location that the original directional gyro and artificial horizon were mounted. A phony (but completely believable) center panel containing the complete stock faces of the original directional gyro and artificial horizon was produced and can be fitted into place when the aircraft is not flown, and once doing so, the cockpit presents itself as completely stock, fore and aft.
For instance, P-51D-25-NA 44-73349, that can be seen on display at the Swiss Air Force Museum, is one of the most untouched and still fully complete P-51D's left, remaining still much as it was in early 1945. With only a few very subtle modifications done to the aircraft while in Swiss service, it has otherwise remained as it was since original manufacture, with everything still all there. When you look into the cockpit, behind the access panels, and up into the gear wells, the original paint and patchwork of primer finishes are still intact from their original factory application. A tremendous resource.
Similarly is P-51D-30-NA 44-74939, on display at the Smithsonian, which after only just over 200 hrs on the clock, was provided to the NASM in the late 40's, where it has remained in preserved state (with the exception of the exterior markings). Another great resource, but, like many other survivors, is a variant of the P-51D that was manufactured too late to see service in WWII, and thus does not completely reflect the same exact configuration of a P-51D that served during the war.
The P-51K-10-NT's, 44-12125 at the Netherlands AF Museum, and 44-12116 at the Crawford Museum, although missing items here and there, are also untouched and original in their internal details from their original manufacture. These particular examples also still retain their fabric elevators, being as early production models as they are.
(And just a quick unique detail/fact that many may have not noted before: The restored P-51K-10-NT 44-12016 "Fragile But Agile" airframe, had fabric elevators on it all the way up until its recent restoration at Fighter Rebuilders that started in 2007, where it received the later metal-covered elevators. The fabric elevators, for which it had, is a detail that is correct to the P-51K-10-NT. It is not a correct detail for a P-51D-20-NA, that it was being claimed to be while it was being advertised as the original "Twilight Tear", as all P-51D-20-NA's were manufactured with metal elevators.)
One of the unique things to mention too about examples like the restored "Upupa Epops", and now "Twilight Tear" as well, compared with other restorations, is that the internal details are correct to examples that did see service in WWII, and are also correct configurations to the production models they are, coming on the scene in late 1944 (TT) and early 1945 (UE). Both have also done what they can to preserve as much of the interior of the aircraft as being completely authentic as possible, while still being able to operate in today's aviation environment, and really taking it just about to the extreme. On "Upupa Epops", the avionics are confined to two simple gauges, fitted within a bracket that simply attaches onto a factory stock panel on the right wall, and utilizes the already present factory stock mounting holes that were provided for the installation of the SCR-695 controls, that weren't fitted in the cockpit on this and all other European and most Pacific-based examples, anyway. When this, already small, avionics bracket is removed, the cockpit is completely stock, fore and aft (the FHC P-47 and B-25 are also setup this way, with the same basic avionics, which has resulted in nothing being removed/changed from the original aircraft - the Collings Foundation A-36 is also setup quite the same). Similarly, on "Twilight Tear", the few modern avionics that are installed, are hidden in the center and behind the otherwise stock instrument panel, in only the area/location that the original directional gyro and artificial horizon were mounted. A phony (but completely believable) center panel containing the complete stock faces of the original directional gyro and artificial horizon was produced and can be fitted into place when the aircraft is not flown, and once doing so, the cockpit presents itself as completely stock, fore and aft.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:14 pm
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:19 pm
The Crawford Museum's P-51K-10-NT 44-12116, and the Netherlands AF Museum P-51K-10-NT 44-12125, are, quite literally, separated "twins" (essentially sister ships), and both having never been completely restored, and remaining untouched (though missing items) since original manufacture.
Here's a photo from my collection, taken by one of my Dutch friends, of the cockpit of the Netherlands AF example. Note, that being a P-51K-10-NT, the aircraft are near identical to the P-51D-15-NA, of around September/October 1944 production-status, and thus quite early, especially considering the many other, much later production models that survive today. What's also great about 44-12125, at the the Netherlands AF Museum, is that it is a 78th FG (Duxford-based) combat vet. The aircraft retains the early features such as the single carb control lever (for ram and unrammed air - before the fitting of a carb heat control lever), and the early, pre-rocket controls switch panels. The aircraft is also one of those within the era of production, that had the electrical primer switch introduced, and the manual Parker primer removed. Despite this change, the instrument panel surrounds continued to be manufactured just the same, with the mounting holes still present for the manual primer lever (as fitted on the lower right-hand side of the instrument panel, next to the oxygen pressure gauge). As a result, a cover plate was simply screwed into place covering these holes, as clearly can be seen in this photo (the same also went for all P-51D-15-NA and NT's, as well as early model P-51D-20-NA's). During mid P-51D-20-NA production, the instrument panel surround was finally changed, and the oxygen flow gauge, that was mounted previously on the instrument panel surround above the right longeron, was now repositioned next to the oxygen pressure gauge, near to where the original manual primer pump was once located (on the restored "Twilight Tear", the presence of this cover plate is correctly copied, per an authentic to early model P-51D-20-NA detail - on the "Upupa Epops", a late model P-51D-20-NA, it has, correctly, the later redesigned instrument panel surround).
Also note, that P-51K-10-NT's (as well as P-51D-15-NA's, early model P-51D-20-NA's, and all earlier or otherwise equivalent models) came from the factory with N-9 reflector gun sights installed. As shown in the photo below, there is ample evidence that the aircraft was field modified with the installation of the K-14 gun sight (or perhaps a British equivalent). The rough notch/cut-out in the instrument panel shroud, was a common in-field modification, done in order to move the K-14 gun sight forward more from the factory installed location, so that it wasn't so much right in the pilot's face. The throttle is also of an early style 'twist-grip' type, used with the computing gun sights like the K-14.
My favorite details lie in the preserved/original paint and primer finishes. This photo, when in its full resolution form, provides an excellent look at the original font/letter face types used for the stencils. A very rare stencil, that is also present on the Crawford Museum's example, reading "LAND GEAR DOWN" with a downward facing arrow, applied to the side of the trim console just above the gear lever, I have never seen in any other period photos, and the only restoration I believe I have seen it recreated on, is in John Session's P-51B "Impatient Virgin". The floor boards are also wonderful, showing the original non-slide black paint finish, as well as the wear patterns from the pilot's feat, exposing the original wood below. (A note to the modelers: The rivets that you can see on the floor boards were originally painted over at the factory, with the non-slide black paint, and thus would not have shown when new. With wear, the rivets are exposed. Although some are symmetrical, seen the same on either floorboard, several are not.) Also note the interior green painted gear lever with the red painted tip. This seems common to early/mid production models, where as P-51D-20's and later models seem to have most often had all-black painted gear levers.
Also, "if" the instruments present have remained installed as they are since original manufacture, as I suspect they could be, it's interesting in that the clock and the VSI are mounted recessed, rather than the usual and called-for forward mounting (for this instrument panel type).
As seen in Taigh Ramey's photos of the Crawford Museum example in the link in the previous post by Mike, it shares many of the same preserved details (though it still retains its original ball-grip throttle lever, illustrating that it likely never was upgraded from having the N-9 reflector sight installed at the factory (it being a state-side aircraft during the war)).
Here's a photo from my collection, taken by one of my Dutch friends, of the cockpit of the Netherlands AF example. Note, that being a P-51K-10-NT, the aircraft are near identical to the P-51D-15-NA, of around September/October 1944 production-status, and thus quite early, especially considering the many other, much later production models that survive today. What's also great about 44-12125, at the the Netherlands AF Museum, is that it is a 78th FG (Duxford-based) combat vet. The aircraft retains the early features such as the single carb control lever (for ram and unrammed air - before the fitting of a carb heat control lever), and the early, pre-rocket controls switch panels. The aircraft is also one of those within the era of production, that had the electrical primer switch introduced, and the manual Parker primer removed. Despite this change, the instrument panel surrounds continued to be manufactured just the same, with the mounting holes still present for the manual primer lever (as fitted on the lower right-hand side of the instrument panel, next to the oxygen pressure gauge). As a result, a cover plate was simply screwed into place covering these holes, as clearly can be seen in this photo (the same also went for all P-51D-15-NA and NT's, as well as early model P-51D-20-NA's). During mid P-51D-20-NA production, the instrument panel surround was finally changed, and the oxygen flow gauge, that was mounted previously on the instrument panel surround above the right longeron, was now repositioned next to the oxygen pressure gauge, near to where the original manual primer pump was once located (on the restored "Twilight Tear", the presence of this cover plate is correctly copied, per an authentic to early model P-51D-20-NA detail - on the "Upupa Epops", a late model P-51D-20-NA, it has, correctly, the later redesigned instrument panel surround).
Also note, that P-51K-10-NT's (as well as P-51D-15-NA's, early model P-51D-20-NA's, and all earlier or otherwise equivalent models) came from the factory with N-9 reflector gun sights installed. As shown in the photo below, there is ample evidence that the aircraft was field modified with the installation of the K-14 gun sight (or perhaps a British equivalent). The rough notch/cut-out in the instrument panel shroud, was a common in-field modification, done in order to move the K-14 gun sight forward more from the factory installed location, so that it wasn't so much right in the pilot's face. The throttle is also of an early style 'twist-grip' type, used with the computing gun sights like the K-14.
My favorite details lie in the preserved/original paint and primer finishes. This photo, when in its full resolution form, provides an excellent look at the original font/letter face types used for the stencils. A very rare stencil, that is also present on the Crawford Museum's example, reading "LAND GEAR DOWN" with a downward facing arrow, applied to the side of the trim console just above the gear lever, I have never seen in any other period photos, and the only restoration I believe I have seen it recreated on, is in John Session's P-51B "Impatient Virgin". The floor boards are also wonderful, showing the original non-slide black paint finish, as well as the wear patterns from the pilot's feat, exposing the original wood below. (A note to the modelers: The rivets that you can see on the floor boards were originally painted over at the factory, with the non-slide black paint, and thus would not have shown when new. With wear, the rivets are exposed. Although some are symmetrical, seen the same on either floorboard, several are not.) Also note the interior green painted gear lever with the red painted tip. This seems common to early/mid production models, where as P-51D-20's and later models seem to have most often had all-black painted gear levers.
Also, "if" the instruments present have remained installed as they are since original manufacture, as I suspect they could be, it's interesting in that the clock and the VSI are mounted recessed, rather than the usual and called-for forward mounting (for this instrument panel type).
As seen in Taigh Ramey's photos of the Crawford Museum example in the link in the previous post by Mike, it shares many of the same preserved details (though it still retains its original ball-grip throttle lever, illustrating that it likely never was upgraded from having the N-9 reflector sight installed at the factory (it being a state-side aircraft during the war)).
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Wed Sep 05, 2012 6:35 am
Thanks John, very interesting insights.
Pity about the subject aircraft...
Pity about the subject aircraft...
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:27 am
If a wixer is so inclined, please visit Crawford very soon to heavily photo document their P-51 K. It would be highly, immeasurably valuable to get detailed images of the interior and exteriors of this bird. This Mustang has been untouched since it was last flown in 1947.
The curator had told me that they intend to 'restore' that airframe. It would be painted as an ETO aircraft and displayed next to a fiberglass FW190.
Thx,
VL
The curator had told me that they intend to 'restore' that airframe. It would be painted as an ETO aircraft and displayed next to a fiberglass FW190.
Thx,
VL
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:37 am
That's a great shame to hear that, Vlado! Obviously a vision motivated by adhering to the ignorant, rather than those that actually care to acknowledge and preserve the aircraft's history. I wonder what type of 'restoration' they're planning on doing on it? If they plan on wiping out all of that original internal finish and details, I hope they at least plan to reproduce the same details, and not just put down a solid coat of primer and be done with it.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:48 pm
In my opinion, and its only my opinion, a lot of the restorations that we see today have just one problem...they are TOO good. As technically accurate as they may be, and i am not attempting to belittle the effort and expense involved, They are just too clean and too shiny and too perfect to truly represent just what they were actually flying all those years ago. It is eye candy for sure to see these beautiful aircraft, and as an avid car restorer i have some idea of just how much work goes into making a wreck look this good again, but as the automobile market is starting to place more and more emphasis on original unrestored examples i would like to see more aircraft represent the condition that they were actually used in their intended purpose. Aged and weathered, maybe a bit beaten up and dirty, oil leaks and the whole bit. Not what everyone wants to see i'm sure. But certainly more authentic in my opinion. 44-84900 N51YZ is looking pretty good ! Flame on......
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:09 pm
vlado wrote:If a wixer is so inclined, please visit Crawford very soon to heavily photo document their P-51 K. It would be highly, immeasurably valuable to get detailed images of the interior and exteriors of this bird. This Mustang has been untouched since it was last flown in 1947.
The curator had told me that they intend to 'restore' that airframe. It would be painted as an ETO aircraft and displayed next to a fiberglass FW190.
Thx,
VL
Wow. That's unbelievable in this day and age...but sadly believable.
Did you ask the curator why they intended to do that when they have one of the best preserved time capsules around? If so, what was the response?
You can always put a nice model (or ten) in ETO colors in front of it if that's what you're going for...
As we all (well most of us anyhow) know, it's only original once.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:26 pm
The model makers involved with the BoB movie, and one in particular, Mr. Dave Platt, revolutionized the thinking of the scale r/c community with the introduction of weathering for a realistic appearance. I've often wondered if we would ever see a similar direction taken in full scale aircraft restoration.
Here is Dave's 1968 NATS winning SBD which is credited with being the model that ushered in the revolution. Wish I had a better pic as this one does not do the model justice.
Here is Dave's 1968 NATS winning SBD which is credited with being the model that ushered in the revolution. Wish I had a better pic as this one does not do the model justice.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:00 pm
groundpounder wrote:In my opinion, and its only my opinion, a lot of the restorations that we see today have just one problem...they are TOO good. As technically accurate as they may be, and i am not attempting to belittle the effort and expense involved, They are just too clean and too shiny and too perfect to truly represent just what they were actually flying all those years ago. It is eye candy for sure to see these beautiful aircraft, and as an avid car restorer i have some idea of just how much work goes into making a wreck look this good again, but as the automobile market is starting to place more and more emphasis on original unrestored examples i would like to see more aircraft represent the condition that they were actually used in their intended purpose. Aged and weathered, maybe a bit beaten up and dirty, oil leaks and the whole bit. Not what everyone wants to see i'm sure. But certainly more authentic in my opinion. 44-84900 N51YZ is looking pretty good ! Flame on......
I agree with your assessment of 'over restored' Anyone who's been to a very high end auto museum will go blind looking at 1933 PACKARDS that are way, way beyond what rolled out the doors at the far end of the assembly line and I'm a big admirer of senior PACKARDS (senior STINSONS too!)
Modelers and model magazine reviewers fall into to the 'it's nice but..' category also criticizing panel lines and gaps and blah blah blah perceived short comings of a particular new issue model never stopping to reflect that the real deal went down the floor like the building was on fire (HEY!! GET A MOVE ON THERE'S A WAR). Building something as simple as a P-51 or F6F was the equivalent of a modern day F-1 pit stop, the subject stops at a given point and 539 people jump onto it each one with a part or sub assembly and a screwgun or drill motor and 15 minutes later it's at the next station and in the hands of the next crowd of 539 people also with parts in hand, so lovingly hand fitting each and every little panel and access hatch is out the window. Same issues with paint jobs factory or in field, paints are subject to local variations in chemical content, application, and maintenance if any, B-17's were finish painted with a sort of modified fire hose nozzle setup by several people at the same time (spray guns, but supersized and fed from a huge premixed paint pot with 3/4 inch feed lines) to be done in a couple of hours and air dried flying over Puget Sound @ 15000 feet. One admirable point of the aircraft in MNUSAF (and full props to the staff of restorers) is the fact that things like invasion stripes, lettering, etc. look like they were really done by a human using a 2" brush, not laser laid out and done by Chip Foose with a SWORD #0004 striping brush.
It took Boeing around 90 minutes to go from a crate of parts at the Duwamish River side of Plant 2 to a completed B-17 on the ramp waiting to be towed across the street to the pre flight ramp @ KBFI so just how much careful hand filing of each bracket do you suppose went on? (that's 16 completed airplanes in each 24 hour period)
Racecars and racing airplanes are constantly being rubbed and massaged to the point of clearcoating over decals to eliminate any drag that may come from that .0003 high vinyl decals edge, a WW2 warbird should look like one, a bit rough and ready, occupied, in use, lived in, if you want glass smooth go hang out with the Indy Car crowd.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:18 pm
I always liked Dave Tallichet's Mustang "Dixie" (N3333E?), slightly off-the-mark 55FG livery and all, precisely because she was not pristine...looking at her on the ramp was like standing inside a 1945-vintage Kodachrome slide...
Sorry to hear of the Crawford's intentions for "Second Fiddle". Boy, it seems you put that museum (board) at a crossroad and they're guaranteed to take the wrong turn, doesn't it...reminds me of my favourite carmaker Studebaker back in the day. Course one of the Crawford's choices boomeranged magnificently with F2G Race 74 ending up in the air again!
S.
Sorry to hear of the Crawford's intentions for "Second Fiddle". Boy, it seems you put that museum (board) at a crossroad and they're guaranteed to take the wrong turn, doesn't it...reminds me of my favourite carmaker Studebaker back in the day. Course one of the Crawford's choices boomeranged magnificently with F2G Race 74 ending up in the air again!
S.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:41 pm
A few individuals have mentioned the beautifully restored P-51D "NACA 127" over the course of this thread. It is a wonderful aircraft, and is considered to be one of the benchmarks in Mustang restorations, that set the standard for all to come. It's got a great history behind it, that fortunately it still retains. Purchased by Bill Allmon in 1995, the aircraft had been mounted to a pole on outdoor display since the 1950's. Amazingly, much of the original NACA-installed equipment is reported to have sill been remaing, as was the other NACA modifications. The restoration work, as well as maintenance over the years, was carried out by Pacific Fighters. Sometime before the aircraft's 2010 Rolls-Royce Aviation Heritage trophy win, the aircraft received some further attention to return it even closer to original NACA service form.
A great photo of the stock cockpit with NACA modified instrument panel can be seen here (note the gauges and modications chosen for the purpose of executing the dives, during which the airfoils on the wings were tested): http://www.airliners.net/photo/North-Am ... eaf51175de
Another can be seen here: http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?image ... 863/5151/4
These photos, taken by Mike Henninger, are from Reno 2010 where the aircraft was the top champion:
Original data recording devices mounted in the port gun bay: http://www.aerialvisuals.ca/Airframe/Ga ... 003507.jpg
An authentic test/measuring probe that was not fitted to the aircraft prior to 2010: http://www.aerialvisuals.ca/Airframe/Ga ... 003509.jpg
The aircraft, which has been restored with a second seat in the back, can have the armor plate installed or not installed, and it looks killer when it does.
A great photo of the stock cockpit with NACA modified instrument panel can be seen here (note the gauges and modications chosen for the purpose of executing the dives, during which the airfoils on the wings were tested): http://www.airliners.net/photo/North-Am ... eaf51175de
Another can be seen here: http://mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/?image ... 863/5151/4
These photos, taken by Mike Henninger, are from Reno 2010 where the aircraft was the top champion:
Original data recording devices mounted in the port gun bay: http://www.aerialvisuals.ca/Airframe/Ga ... 003507.jpg
An authentic test/measuring probe that was not fitted to the aircraft prior to 2010: http://www.aerialvisuals.ca/Airframe/Ga ... 003509.jpg
The aircraft, which has been restored with a second seat in the back, can have the armor plate installed or not installed, and it looks killer when it does.
Re: Authentic Mustang?
Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:45 pm
Oh, and James, feeling a bit slow, I finally understood your last statement there, having to recall your general stance on the Mustang! 