Really would appreciate some help on correct colors for rest

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Guys,

I really need some help nailing down the correct olive Drab and gray for my Aeronca O-58A built September 1941. I have researched every link and web site and find a lot of conflicting information.

I need to know the specific federal numbers for the OD and Gray along with documentation of their accuracy. There are plenty of people who can tell me what it was in 1943 and 1944 but no one seems to be able to provide documented evidence of what was in use the Fall of 1941.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could provide this information. In addition to the correct color I need either a correct chip card or the tristimulus values.

Surely someone on this board knows what color aircraft were being painted in 1941.

Thanks for your help,

Steve

Wildchild · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:49 am

Pssh, actual colors don't matter on here.

Just paint the whole plane in invasion stripes!!! :twisted:

Ok, I'm done now. Sorry, I can't help you.

51fixer · **Posted:** Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:14 pm

Paint is somewhat of an eye of the beholder thing.
There are a few paint chip books from the war floating around. My experience is that everything would vary to some degree depending on what lot and point of time.
I also don't know what covering system you are using and whether the A/C is standard category. If you are using an STC for a standard category A/C there are instructions with the STC that must be followed to be legal. Usually you have to purchase their products and paints or the STC is void.
Contacting a major restoration facility for warbirds is probably the best step. You will probably have to pay them for their knowledge but might get you the closest to you objective.
Otherwise the original part listed on eBay with original paint gets listed on occasion.
Good luck.

L-4Pilot wrote:

Guys,

I really need some help nailing down the correct olive Drab and gray for my Aeronca O-58A built September 1941. I have researched every link and web site and find a lot of conflicting information.

I need to know the specific federal numbers for the OD and Gray along with documentation of their accuracy. There are plenty of people who can tell me what it was in 1943 and 1944 but no one seems to be able to provide documented evidence of what was in use the Fall of 1941.

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could provide this information. In addition to the correct color I need either a correct chip card or the tristimulus values.

Surely someone on this board knows what color aircraft were being painted in 1941.

Thanks for your help,

Steve

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

[quote="51fixer"]Paint is somewhat of an eye of the beholder thing.
There are a few paint chip books from the war floating around. My experience is that everything would vary to some degree depending on what lot and point of time.
I also don't know what covering system you are using and whether the A/C is standard category. If you are using an STC for a standard category A/C there are instructions with the STC that must be followed to be legal. Usually you have to purchase their products and paints or the STC is void.
Contacting a major restoration facility for warbirds is probably the best step. You will probably have to pay them for their knowledge but might get you the closest to you objective.
Otherwise the original part listed on eBay with original paint gets listed on occasion.
Good luck.
[quote="L-4Pilot"]Guys,

I am using the Air-Tech STC and they are custom mixing the paint for me. I have now located the Army Air Corps bulletin numbers. I went thru all of my drawings and recorded the Army Air Corps Bullletins that are referenced for 1941 and 1942. These bulletins include the correct color numbers. I have forwarded this information to a friend with several museum contacts and they will attempt to locate and print copies of the needed bulletins for me. Once I have the documented color numbers I will have Air Tech mix the paint. The correct shade for 1941 is a little more brown than the 1942 and 1943 shades as the paint being used faded quickly and ended up with a more light brown tone. The later AAF paint faded to a more green tone. The 1942 and 1943 colors are easy to find it is the pre-war timing and the difference that I have to verify.

As I did with all of the other warbirds (L-4s and O-1s) I have done I always have the color documentation to support the color used.

Will post the end result for you as I think this research may help some other people.

Best Regards,
Steve

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:20 pm

The closest I can come is Bulletin 41-A dated October 1, 1942 which superseeded Bulletin 41 dated September 16th, 1940.

I have the enamel plates that pre date Bulletin 41 which were before the assigned two and three digit color numbers. This is Olive Drab:

And the later color cards dated 1945

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Taigh,

Thanks for posting those wonderful photos and information. I believe when we eventually find bulletin 41 the Olive Drab may approximate the OD you show here from the pre-war enamel color set #1158 dated 1936 except in a flat finish.

Was there a gray color included in enamel set 1158 along with the olive drab ? I f I am unable to locate bulletin 41 I may consider using 1158 as a basis for the O-58A.

Again, Thank you very much for posting this information.

Best Regards,
Steve Dunn

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Here is a photo of the original four YO-58 aircraft that were built prior to the twenty O-58A aircraft. The yo-58s were tandem trainers taken from the civilian production line and painted Olive Drab. After the 1941 La. Maneuvers the Army issued a contract to Aeronca for the twenty O-58 models. The O-58A has a few differences from the YO-58 which include an expanded greenhouse on top, different aileron pushrod connection instead of cables. In the YO-58 photo you can see the external aileron cable exiting the top of the wing to the aileron bellcrank. The next photos are O-58A, the first with no rear throttle and Learadios installed on window ledge, the 2nd is a manual illustration showing a O-58A converted to L-3A with rear throttle added and radios relocated same as early serial number B models.

The O-58s were built under W535 ac-22530 with serial number range 42-7793 to 42-7812. Mine was built in September and was the 4th aircraft of the range, 42-7797 is in storage at FT. Rucker in a state of disrepair. It was accepted by the Army November 18th, 1941 and was sent to Camp Beauregard with the 109th Observation Squadron and flew out of Esler Army Airfield during the 1942 La. Maneuvers. It then went to Mitchel Field in NY, Ft. Bragg North Carolina, Savannah Ga. Pittsburg KS. and finally Tinker . IT was flown a total of 756 hrs by the Army before being sold as surplus.

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:03 pm

From my findings/research along with color photos of the period I believe that you will not see that much variation in the shade from bulletin 41, 41-A and throughout the rest of the war for Olive Drab paint used on aircraft.

Take a look at all of the different original color photos of the pre war and early war aircraft and compare them to the later war shots and they look just like the original samples and original plates I have here. It's hard top tell in the photo of the plates above from the crude iPhone photos but all of my samples are very close to each other. It is my opinion that the variation you see in field shots is a matter of the different paint manufacturers variances and how each of these would fade at different rates and in different ways.

I have found that TM9 paints has reproduced a very accurate shade that matches what I have both in original parts and the color cards.

Certainly your mileage may vary but a variation is not only acceptable but documentable.

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Taigh Ramey wrote:

From my findings/research along with color photos of the period I believe that you will not see that much variation in the shade from bulletin 41, 41-A and throughout the rest of the war for Olive Drab paint used on aircraft.

Take a look at all of the different original color photos of the pre war and early war aircraft and compare them to the later war shots and they look just like the original samples and original plates I have here. It's hard top tell in the photo of the plates above from the crude iPhone photos but all of my samples are very close to each other. It is my opinion that the variation you see in field shots is a matter of the different paint manufacturers variances and how each of these would fade at different rates and in different ways.

I have found that TM9 paints has reproduced a very accurate shade that matches what I have both in original parts and the color cards.

Certainly your mileage may vary but a variation is not only acceptable but documentable.

To your point they are all very similar. QMS Olive Drab #41 was in use starting in 1940 and is supposed to be the same as ANA 613 but when dry #41 is lighter and when they fade 41 fades more brown while 613 stays darker and fades more to the green tint.

Thanks again for posting those excellent photos.

Steve

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/t ... si/00.shtm

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

Taigh, I will scan and post photos of the color cards from this 1943 book I purchased as soon as I can for you.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Best Regards,
Steve

L-4Pilot · **Joined:** Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:35 pm **Posts:** 616

The tech order pulled by my friend from Air Force archives is at the link below. Sorry for the poor quality but it was the best he could do. This tech order dated June 1, 1942 replaces tech order 07-1-1 dated April 8, 1941 but the colors remained the same. This tech order calls for QMS # 41 Olive Drab on upper surfaces and QMS # 43 neutral gray on under surfaces. QMS # 42 medium green is specified for leading edge and tail surface edge cammo.

It is interesting to note that QMS # 28 Sea Green is authorized as an option to replace #41 for upper surfaces when the aircraft is operated over predominately green terrain.

After selecting a page click on it again to enlarge for reading.

http://s1141.photobucket.com/albums/n58 ... 6-01-1942/

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Really would appreciate some help on correct colors for rest

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