Were German WWII engines "that bad"?

[Stephan Wilkinson]

The push to defeat the Germans before concentrating on the Pacific theater had a LOT more to do with political/diplomatic considerations than it did with any thought that we'd better beat the Germans before they got an a-bomb or wonder weapons. That was a side benefit, if anything. Read Rick Atkinson's newest book, the third of his monumental WWII in Africa/Europe trilogy. (I'm too lazy to go upstairs and look, but I think the title is "The Guns at Last Light.")

[Ollie]

Very interesting discussion guys!

[old iron]

There was a reason for the push to defeat the Germans before the Japanese. A few more months/years of German development and we would have been dealing with some major technology leaps that we were very far behind.

The Germans could have made all the technology leaps in the world, but did not have the resources to build anything in sufficient numbers. A thousand P-47s beats 10 Me.262s any day of the week.

[shrike]

The Germans could have made all the technology leaps in the world, but did not have the resources to build anything in sufficient numbers. A thousand P-47s beats 10 Me.262s any day of the week.

True, which brings up a couple of interesting points.
The Germans didn't go on to a full war footing until the middle of '44. German aircraft production actually increased each month until a sudden drop off in 1945. I've read that the idea was to pretend on the German homefront that everything was hunky-dory. If you were outside the cities being bombed, this could be believed since Germany was not only a predominately agricultural country, but that the official culture presented this as the ideal. Had Germany made the leap to all-out production in, say 1942 when they had the petroleum supply from their Romanian allies, things might have been quite different.

The other thing I have always found odd, is that the US decided to adopt the German model of technology. Quality over quantity, with ever smaller numbers of more advanced aircraft, tanks etc., when we had just watched the Germans being defeated by following just that plan. This while we were facing the Soviets, who had clung to the (very successful) idea of simply out-producing your enemy. A Tiger was demonstrably worth a dozen Shermans, but we built 15. M1 Abrams we've built about 9000, T-72 about 25000

[old iron]

The Germans didn't go on to a full war footing until the middle of '44. German aircraft production actually increased each month until a sudden drop off in 1945.

The Germans were still producing private automobiles in 1943. We were getting out of that business on Dec. 8 1941.

[shrike]

The Germans didn't go on to a full war footing until the middle of '44. German aircraft production actually increased each month until a sudden drop off in 1945.

The Germans were still producing private automobiles in 1943. We were getting out of that business on Dec. 8 1941.

And apparently that silly 'War thing" was making it difficult to find good servants as well

[jtramo]

The actual German aircraft production increased through the years peaking in late 44 and even wars end 1945 was more productive then Jan 44 and prior. The material they lacked was pilots and fuel.

That said, they couldn't compete with our sheer number plane for plane.



Agreed, an awesome thread btw.

[CoastieJohn]

Not sure if it was used for their engines but I know they wanted the cryolite mine in Greenland. The cryolite was used to process aluminum. I believe the Coast Guard and Army folks protected the mine during WWII.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... enland.jpg

Just to add to this.....earlier tonight I was doing some research on "contra-props" and came across this December 1941 Popular Science magazine. It has a lot of great articles about various subjects. Aside from the contra-prop article, one that caught my eye was about magnesium use in aircraft engine production and other airframe parts. The article starts on page 59. BTW...the contra-prop article is on page 111. IAW the article, an Italian airplane racing team first used them in 1929.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hCcDAA ... e&q&f=true

[shrike]

Germany was the leading producer of magnesium before WWII. Indeed, the only commercial producer of it before the previous war.
Extensive use was made of an aluminium - magnesium alloy trademarked as Elektron for Daimler crankcases and the huge engine bearers common to German aircraft.
Lycoming still uses it for the sumps of their 540 series engines. It's propensity to dissolve in acids as mild as water makes frequent regular oil changes a must.

The M.C.72 with the contra-rotating propellers was unusual in that the Fiat AS.6 24 cylinder powerplant was actually two V-12's siamesed together, with each engine driving a propeller independently. Someone posted a soundclip here recently.
http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46079&hilit=macchi

[CoastieJohn]

I seen a contra-prop Spitfire on Youtube today, That is what got me looking into the concept.

[ColesAircraft]

Magnesium: I believe this was used by all sides in various aircraft components from before the war, and it is a great weight-saver at the expense of corrosion resistance. In the case of the Japanese, Mitsubishi used a magnesium alloy in their wing spar caps, and it literally began to break down as the aircraft left the factory - but its lifespan was deemed sufficient in light of the life expectancy of the aircraft. The Bf 109 E had a magnesium alloy instrument panel. I have one, and it's pretty much like a thin, rotted, piece of brittle plywood.

[shrike]

If you bead-blast a decent sized magnesium casting, you can see to start to corrode and change color before you finish.

The Wildcat at Pima was displayed for a while (and may still be. they've moved it since I was there last) with all of the accessories laying in a pile behind the engine mount. Cold fresh water hadn't damaged the aluminum structure badly, but the magnesium engine accessory case had fizzed away to epsom salts.

[Steve Nelson]

The Kalamazoo Air Zoo used to display what was left of the magnesium supercharger housing next to the Lake Michigan SBD..it looked like Swiss Cheese. I understand the original wheels were magnesium as well, and had completely disintegrated.

SN

[Flying Pencil]

There was a reason for the push to defeat the Germans before the Japanese. A few more months/years of German development and we would have been dealing with some major technology leaps that we were very far behind.

The Germans could have made all the technology leaps in the world, but did not have the resources to build anything in sufficient numbers. A thousand P-47s beats 10 Me.262s any day of the week.

I concur with Shrike, the Germans where able to keep up and even expand production.

The loss of pilots and limited fuel what the bigger issue. The corruption was another.

[Flying Pencil]

Extensive use was made of an aluminium - magnesium alloy trademarked as Elektron for Daimler crankcases and the huge engine bearers common to German aircraft.
Lycoming still uses it for the sumps of their 540 series engines. It's propensity to dissolve in acids as mild as water makes frequent regular oil changes a must.

To be accurate, it is the condensed exhaust gasses that enter the oil system is what causes the issue.
Exhaust gasses are volumes of CO2 and, yes, lots and lots of DiHydrogen-Oxide, aka H2O (water).
Condensed together, they form carbonated water, better known as soda water (without the sugar), which is acidic.

Absolutely pure water is neutral.
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae424.cfm

Atmospheric humidity is on the acid side, again due to CO2 mixing (among other items).