Lost Oklahoma prairie B-17s ?
Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:28 pm
I posted this in May on the Oklahoma Wreckchasing board but it didn't generate as much response as hoped. I think it is time to dig for my Florida salesman's name and number...
"...Now here is a twist in a story possibly related to these. In 1992 I talked with an exotic and classic automobile broker in Florida on the phone. He was pretty good friends with my boss at the time, another dealer in classic and antique autos. The Florida man (his name in buried in some old file I have I'm sure) said he was contacted in the 70s or early 80s about a fleet of old but very original Army staff cars that were available for sale in rural Oklahoma. He traveled to see them thinking they may be good hire out candidates for Hollywood World War II movies. He reported to me that they were all derelict Dodge or Plymouth 4-door sedans and he guessed their real value to be minimal and not worth the investment on speculation for movie work. He asked the owner if he had anything else of interest and the man said, "I have two old B-17s." The car dealer told me they were parked in a remote field well off the beaten path, and he was allowed to board them and sit in the cockpits. One had an old log book sitting on the seat. He told me he really knew nothing about the vintage aircraft market and assumed they had no value, even though they were fascinating to see and touch. He actually asked me that day on the phone in 1992, "Aren't there hundreds of those old bombers still parked in the desert in Arizona?"
Needless to say in several subsequent conversations I tried to find out as much as I could of these fabled lost B-17s. I was unsuccessful in that quest. The car dealer was very willing to help. He said he kept meticulous files on his car finder work, and marveled that after much searching that he could not find any record of the Oklahoma seller's name, location, or phone.
Now I knew my civil B-17 history well enough to know that aside from a couple of B-17s witnessed by Altus residents in 1946 being trucked away by an unknown buyer, that these two Oklahoma aircraft matched no known surviving B-17s. After arriving at nothing but dead ends I finally put this story away in the Lost Myths and Ones That Got Away file.
One of the only clues the car dealer could remember as to location was that it was in a spot where a new Interstate was to come through. This is why the seller was offering the cars and the airplanes. His property was being sold to make way for the new freeway.
Could it be that these planned Service Station B-17s could have survived another 30 years or so to languish in some remote corner of Oklahoma? One would think they would have been spotted from the air many many years ago and thus be well known.
Today I got thinking, but what if they were stored with wings detached? I can't honestly say that I ever asked the car dealer about that.
Stuff that daydreams are made of right? Stranger things have happened...
"...Now here is a twist in a story possibly related to these. In 1992 I talked with an exotic and classic automobile broker in Florida on the phone. He was pretty good friends with my boss at the time, another dealer in classic and antique autos. The Florida man (his name in buried in some old file I have I'm sure) said he was contacted in the 70s or early 80s about a fleet of old but very original Army staff cars that were available for sale in rural Oklahoma. He traveled to see them thinking they may be good hire out candidates for Hollywood World War II movies. He reported to me that they were all derelict Dodge or Plymouth 4-door sedans and he guessed their real value to be minimal and not worth the investment on speculation for movie work. He asked the owner if he had anything else of interest and the man said, "I have two old B-17s." The car dealer told me they were parked in a remote field well off the beaten path, and he was allowed to board them and sit in the cockpits. One had an old log book sitting on the seat. He told me he really knew nothing about the vintage aircraft market and assumed they had no value, even though they were fascinating to see and touch. He actually asked me that day on the phone in 1992, "Aren't there hundreds of those old bombers still parked in the desert in Arizona?"
Needless to say in several subsequent conversations I tried to find out as much as I could of these fabled lost B-17s. I was unsuccessful in that quest. The car dealer was very willing to help. He said he kept meticulous files on his car finder work, and marveled that after much searching that he could not find any record of the Oklahoma seller's name, location, or phone.
Now I knew my civil B-17 history well enough to know that aside from a couple of B-17s witnessed by Altus residents in 1946 being trucked away by an unknown buyer, that these two Oklahoma aircraft matched no known surviving B-17s. After arriving at nothing but dead ends I finally put this story away in the Lost Myths and Ones That Got Away file.
One of the only clues the car dealer could remember as to location was that it was in a spot where a new Interstate was to come through. This is why the seller was offering the cars and the airplanes. His property was being sold to make way for the new freeway.
Could it be that these planned Service Station B-17s could have survived another 30 years or so to languish in some remote corner of Oklahoma? One would think they would have been spotted from the air many many years ago and thus be well known.
Today I got thinking, but what if they were stored with wings detached? I can't honestly say that I ever asked the car dealer about that.
Stuff that daydreams are made of right? Stranger things have happened...
Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:17 pm
hummmm. . . the cars I can definatley see being true - they would fit in perfectly with much of the rural attitude (I lived in Western Oklahoma for a while) the B-17s are a bit more of a stretch - those old guys tend to have a really good knowledge of what the "junk" laying out back is really worth. The deals come when they pass away and the kids just want to get rid of the stuff.
All this said, there is a lot of wide open space in Oklahoma where they could get tucked away - especially in Western OK.
Fun to think about the possibilities! I have of course heard about a B-24 in Montana that sat and sat until a farmer had a bunch of cows killed by lightening while they were under the wings of the plane and that irked the old guy who sold it for aluminum scrap
Tom P.
All this said, there is a lot of wide open space in Oklahoma where they could get tucked away - especially in Western OK.
Fun to think about the possibilities! I have of course heard about a B-24 in Montana that sat and sat until a farmer had a bunch of cows killed by lightening while they were under the wings of the plane and that irked the old guy who sold it for aluminum scrap
Tom P.
Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:09 pm
Well, if a highway was going through and the story is true, then the B-17s were probably scrapped. (Ack. I almost wrote scraped--something which annoys me to no end)
Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:30 pm
Time to Google Earth western OK. 
Oklahoma highway construction since 1975
Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:05 pm
One thought I always entertained was finding out from the State of Oklahoma what new highways may have been built through lonesome parts of the state between 1975 and 1985. That might be one place to start. Also which highways were planned, with land bought, but never constructed.
Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:37 pm
Stop entertaining the thought and go do it!!!
I wanted to work on warbirds, I became the youngest volunteer on Doc. I wanted to make a web page which would list surviving WWII aircraft and I will have it up within the next six months or so. I wanted to learn how to fly so I won a scholarship and am learning to fly. I wanted to make a museum inventory list so I am in the process of building a museum inventory database.
Moral of the story: If you do nothing, you won't get what you want. Oh, and it also involves hard work.
I have spent nearly a hundred hours on my web pages, 15 or 16 actual flying hours (studying involves even more), and who knows how much on Doc.
Yes, we could then argue that something often happens regardless of the occurrence of something or nothing. But I can garuntee you that unless you do something about finding that out, nothing will come of it (unless someone else does, but that's a different point all together).
Nothing bad can come of just doing some simple research.
Of course...my entire point is pointless if you have no time at all.
Needless to say, I'm really bad at pep talks.
I wanted to work on warbirds, I became the youngest volunteer on Doc. I wanted to make a web page which would list surviving WWII aircraft and I will have it up within the next six months or so. I wanted to learn how to fly so I won a scholarship and am learning to fly. I wanted to make a museum inventory list so I am in the process of building a museum inventory database.
Moral of the story: If you do nothing, you won't get what you want. Oh, and it also involves hard work.
I have spent nearly a hundred hours on my web pages, 15 or 16 actual flying hours (studying involves even more), and who knows how much on Doc.
Yes, we could then argue that something often happens regardless of the occurrence of something or nothing. But I can garuntee you that unless you do something about finding that out, nothing will come of it (unless someone else does, but that's a different point all together).
Nothing bad can come of just doing some simple research.
Of course...my entire point is pointless if you have no time at all.
Needless to say, I'm really bad at pep talks.
Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:35 pm
Why not post a message on a surplus military vehicle forum. They might have heard about this collection of cars, and could send you in the right direction!
T J
T J
Military surplus vehicles
Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:49 pm
Good idea T.J. ! I just posted my first one. I'm going back for more,
cover me, I'm going in...
cover me, I'm going in...
Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:36 pm
Hey Tom, Where were you in OK? I spent 4 lovely years at Altus AFB(LONG AFTER THE AIRPLANES WERE SCRAPPED 
) That place really is in the middle of the dust bowl! I hung around with the muscle car guys and spent considerable time in some of the local junkyards with my mouth hanging open over the classic cars in them with no rust, dents or other visable damage(cigarette lighter burned out, gotta scrap the car!
) and me a poor GI! 
Don
) That place really is in the middle of the dust bowl! I hung around with the muscle car guys and spent considerable time in some of the local junkyards with my mouth hanging open over the classic cars in them with no rust, dents or other visable damage(cigarette lighter burned out, gotta scrap the car!
) and me a poor GI!
Don
Responses to WWII military staff car searches
Sat Jan 14, 2006 12:38 am
I've had three responses to the four or five requests posted or E-mailed last night within the circles connected with old military staff cars in the Oklahoma area. So far batting zero.
On a different note has anyone ever run aa advertisement in the Nickle ads in towns such as Altus, Kingman, Stillwater, etc. asking for WANTED: World War II aircraft parts souvenirs from the scrapyards?
On a different note has anyone ever run aa advertisement in the Nickle ads in towns such as Altus, Kingman, Stillwater, etc. asking for WANTED: World War II aircraft parts souvenirs from the scrapyards?
Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:04 am
Grew up in Oklahoma and for the life of me I cant think of any interstate highway being built that late, however I believe there was a new road built from Altus up to burns flat area about that time, or maybe it was a rebuilding of that highway...
I remember an airstrip in east OKC that was lost to highway construction in the seventies, they cut the new road right thru the middle of it. I think there were old army vehicles there.
Another near miss is the old aircraft scrapyard in north OKC but thats long gone now...cleared in the early 80's when the owner died and the city took the land from his widow.
I wonder what happened to the single seat voodoo that was there as it was fairly complete except tor avionics...I remember reaching in and turning the blades on the engines.. and another voodoo two seater on a pole on I40 as you drove through OKC. It was used as a sign for a steel yard I think. I went to the place and remember seeing 6 or 7 R2800's just laying on the ground along with a few turbines laying next to them.
there was a north - south turnpike ( toll road ) built from OKC thru Lawton and on down to Wichita falls but it was done in the 60's if I remember correctly.
also, highway 7 was just finished a few years ago but the land was bought for it back in about that time period...
guess I need to make a trip back home and start asking around.
I've been lurking here for a few weeks and this is my first post.
Nice place you got here Scott!
I remember an airstrip in east OKC that was lost to highway construction in the seventies, they cut the new road right thru the middle of it. I think there were old army vehicles there.
Another near miss is the old aircraft scrapyard in north OKC but thats long gone now...cleared in the early 80's when the owner died and the city took the land from his widow.
I wonder what happened to the single seat voodoo that was there as it was fairly complete except tor avionics...I remember reaching in and turning the blades on the engines.. and another voodoo two seater on a pole on I40 as you drove through OKC. It was used as a sign for a steel yard I think. I went to the place and remember seeing 6 or 7 R2800's just laying on the ground along with a few turbines laying next to them.
there was a north - south turnpike ( toll road ) built from OKC thru Lawton and on down to Wichita falls but it was done in the 60's if I remember correctly.
also, highway 7 was just finished a few years ago but the land was bought for it back in about that time period...
guess I need to make a trip back home and start asking around.
I've been lurking here for a few weeks and this is my first post.
Nice place you got here Scott!
Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:06 pm
frankspeaks wrote:I've been lurking here for a few weeks and this is my first post.
Welcome to WIX!
Mike
Possible owner???
Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:52 pm
Just got this E-mail this morning ragrading an inquiry made on the military staff cars...
"I think your referring to the collection of "Doc Henderson." He passed away some years ago and his estate made hasty disposition of his vast collections. Nothing remains today. I'm sorry I have no idea where the various vehicles disseminated to."
This was my message sent:
Do you know of a group (perhaps a fleet of 6-10 cars) of World War II staff cars (thought to all be Plymouths or Dodges) that were owned by someone in Oklahoma sometime at least up until the 1970s. The owner had a small fleet I understand derelict at some remote location. A special interest auto broker contact of mine in 1992 reported that he went to look at them in speculation to purchase them for movie work sometime in that last 15 years previous to 1992 (he didn't recall exactly when or the exact location). He decided against it and returned to Florida. I have no real interest in the cars specifically but do want to know the location and the possible owner's name.
PM me if you would like the contact info of the museum curator that sent me the E-mail. I don't feel it should be put out for any to see or he may get bombarded with crazy E-mails. I didn't mention the B-17s to him as you can see above.
"I think your referring to the collection of "Doc Henderson." He passed away some years ago and his estate made hasty disposition of his vast collections. Nothing remains today. I'm sorry I have no idea where the various vehicles disseminated to."
This was my message sent:
Do you know of a group (perhaps a fleet of 6-10 cars) of World War II staff cars (thought to all be Plymouths or Dodges) that were owned by someone in Oklahoma sometime at least up until the 1970s. The owner had a small fleet I understand derelict at some remote location. A special interest auto broker contact of mine in 1992 reported that he went to look at them in speculation to purchase them for movie work sometime in that last 15 years previous to 1992 (he didn't recall exactly when or the exact location). He decided against it and returned to Florida. I have no real interest in the cars specifically but do want to know the location and the possible owner's name.
PM me if you would like the contact info of the museum curator that sent me the E-mail. I don't feel it should be put out for any to see or he may get bombarded with crazy E-mails. I didn't mention the B-17s to him as you can see above.