Merlin Engine Rebuild Info needed

[Paul Krumrei]

I was sent this e-mail any information is greatly appriciated!



We are Project North Star Association of Canada (PNSAC), website www.projectnorthstar.ca . We are about to commence removing the first engine from the North Star 17515 located at the Canada Aviation Museum, Ottawa. Before we start we would like to know if you could provide us with a ball park estimate of costs involved based on your experience in stripping, overhauling to an operating standard or re-building a Merlin engine to an exhibit standard. Specifically cost of parts would be useful, other info, such as services purchased would be useful but not essential. Alternatively could you give us a contact at Universal Airmotive Ltd. in Chicago who may be able to provide fairly accurate cost figures.

Any info or references you can provide would be much appreciated.



Jim Riddoch

PNSAC

E-mail: jriddoch@rogers.com

Tel/Fax: (613) 596-5076



And/Or



Robert Holmgren

President PNSAC

E-Mail: robertholmgren@rogers.com

Tel: (613) 748-5972

[mrhenniger]

Project North Star (PNS) is a volunteer group that is restoring the only remaining example of the Canadair North Star, a Merlin powered DC-4. The airframe belongs to the National Aeronautical Collection of Canada is is now housed in the new storage hanger of the Canada Aviation Museum.

PNS is a relatively new organization who's first project is the North Star, but will eventually restore other aircraft belonging to the collection.

I know they were starting to tool up for the removal of the engine months ago. As I remember they were trying to get the techical expertise together to do it themselves, but they may now be considering doing it elsewhere. I think the big hurdle would have been the museum allowing them to outsource work.

Anyway... if anyone can recommend someplace where Merlins can be restored feel free to email Jim Riddoch directly (he is a super nice guy) or email myself. I would be happy to compile a list of responses and pass them onto Jim.

For more information about Project North Star go to...
http://www.projectnorthstar.ca/aboutus.htm

Mike

[Chris]

Do they have to run or are they strictly for show? Perhaps one of the current Merlin experts such as Mike Nixon might be willing in exchange for useful cranks, cams rods etc. It might be worth a phone call anyway.

[vanguard]

There are only 4-5 shops that do merlins.
1. HOVEY MACHINE PRODUCTS
2. VINTAGE V-12's
3. RICK SCHANHOLTSER (spellin?) in TEXAS
4. MIKE BARROW
5. ROUSH
Dwight THORNE is now just selling parts. JRS shut down a couple years ago. I believe the guy in CHICAGO is also retired.
I know two of the above quote about 40-50 thousand to tear down,inspect,plate,paint and re-assemble the engine. That aslo include seals and gaskets. All re-work of danaged parts or replacement parts is on top of the 40-50 grand. Most seem to require some rework or parts replaced.
RETRO-TRACK in europe also does overhauls. But shipping would cost more than it would be worth unless they were doing it gratis.

[mrhenniger]

Do they have to run or are they strictly for show? Perhaps one of the current Merlin experts such as Mike Nixon might be willing in exchange for useful cranks, cams rods etc. It might be worth a phone call anyway.

One thing to keep in mind is that these engines are museum pieces. It will be very important that the engine would be preserved as-is, to museum standards. Other people have pointed out to me that the transport heads on those engines are extremely valuable. They are, but they are part of a larger artifact, and important artifact to Canada, and won't be going anywhere but back on the engines.

The last I heard, and now this is some months old, that PNS would like to see engine runs of one engine. It would be up to the museum to approve such operations, and I don't know if they had been approached about that point at that time, but maybe they have now. It would make sense to me to restore all four engines to runable/museum quality standards, then inhibit three of them where you leave one that can be run once a year or something like that. Anyway... this is just me guessing at this point.

You can of course find current pictures of Project North Star progress on their website. In case anyone is interested you can find my North Star pictures at...

http://community.webshots.com/album/475147414lMMHFu

...and you may wish to check out a few period photos at...

http://community.webshots.com/album/475147740SkHXqK

Regards,

Mike

[peter]

I would try and keep the mrelins intact otherwise you lose the historical significance if heads are changed etc. If you can get one running that would be impressive but from a conservation viewpoint if keeping the historical significance of the aircraft means never running an engine then that is ok to.

[mrhenniger]

I would try and keep the mrelins intact otherwise you lose the historical significance if heads are changed etc. If you can get one running that would be impressive but from a conservation viewpoint if keeping the historical significance of the aircraft means never running an engine then that is ok to.

I couldn't have said it better myself. The museum has done engine runs before. The Hawker Hind comes to mind. I also remember seeing them run the engines on the CP-121 Tracker. It is really a balance between preserving the collection for future generations, and showing some functionality to give perspective. If it were up to me to decide I would say the museum should take a purely preservation role and have no operational role. Operational demonstrations can be carried out by museums like the Canadian Warplane Heritage in Hamilton, or Mr. Potter and his crew in Gatineau. These are groups that specialize in maintaining and flying aircraft and can more easily demonstrate a Merlin in operation.

Mike

[Dan K]

If I'm understanding the situation correctly, the goal is to restore the airframe to an airworthy standard, but the aircraft will most probably not be flown.

That neck of the woods must have at least a few "motorheads" who could get one of the Merlins running again. If it's purely for display purposes you don't need a team of A&P's doing the job (and thus could avoid the $50,000+ price tag of rebuilding a Merlin to an airworthy standard). How about connecting with some of the engine display fellows like...

http://www.enginehistory.org/

Or perhaps a local tech school would want to take on a project.

(Just thinking out loud)

[Yak 11 Fan]

There are only 4-5 shops that do merlins.
1. HOVEY MACHINE PRODUCTS
2. VINTAGE V-12's
3. RICK SCHANHOLTSER (spellin?) in TEXAS
4. MIKE BARROW
5. ROUSH
Dwight THORNE is now just selling parts. JRS shut down a couple years ago. I believe the guy in CHICAGO is also retired.
I know two of the above quote about 40-50 thousand to tear down,inspect,plate,paint and re-assemble the engine. That aslo include seals and gaskets. All re-work of danaged parts or replacement parts is on top of the 40-50 grand. Most seem to require some rework or parts replaced.
RETRO-TRACK in europe also does overhauls. But shipping would cost more than it would be worth unless they were doing it gratis.

Maurice Hammond in the UK also rebuilds Merlins.

[Flat 12x2]

Peter Grieve at MerlinV12.com sounds like the best bet , he only builds static & ground running Merlins. He's in the UK but can give plenty of advice.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/pwgrieve/index.html
Anybody ever seen a V8 Merlin ?, well they built the Merlin for Tanks as the Meteor & they then built a V8 Meteor the Meteorite to power the tank transporters ! its on Peters site.

[bdk]

Why not just preserve the engines as-is and do a spray bomb overhaul to the outsides? Do they turn over or are they frozen? If frozen, you may do more damage trying to get them apart than future deterioration would cause.

If you aren't going to get all four running at once it seems like quite a bother to do just one. If you're going to risk catching it on fire you might as well fly it!

If you trade out the good engine parts for unserviceable items, you might get good looking static rebuilds in exchange and generate enough extra revenue to finish the restoration all at once. I personally don't see much historical significance in THOSE engines as opposed to a static display replacement.

[mlenoch]

Serviceable transport heads may sell for at least $15,000++ with trade in of the old units. The old units may likely have cracks only around the valve seats. Outwardly, the old transport heads would look exactly like the serviceable units.
3 or 4 engines worth would generate enough cash for lots of other restoration.
FYI

[vanguard]

[quote="bdk"]Why not just preserve the engines as-is and do a spray bomb overhaul to the outsides? Do they turn over or are they frozen? If frozen, you may do more damage trying to get them apart than future deterioration would cause.

"SPRAY BOMB OVERHAUL"
Now thats a CHINO term.
LoL

[airnutz]

Why not just preserve the engines as-is and do a spray bomb overhaul to the outsides? Do they turn over or are they frozen? If frozen, you may do more damage trying to get them apart than future deterioration would cause.

If you aren't going to get all four running at once it seems like quite a bother to do just one. If you're going to risk catching it on fire you might as well fly it!

If you trade out the good engine parts for unserviceable items, you might get good looking static rebuilds in exchange and generate enough extra revenue to finish the restoration all at once. I personally don't see much historical significance in THOSE engines as opposed to a static display replacement.

The historical significance come from the original conditions of the engines
right down to the period metallurgy and technical renderings of day-to-day
care. Why spray-can a diamond and turn it into a lump-o-coal? Stick to
yer guns..take your time..hand it off to your kids if you have to!!! It will
come together over time!

[mrhenniger]

I got permission to Quote Mr. Riddoch out of a few of the emails we exchanged yesterday. I thought it might help clarify the museum's and PNS' intentions regarding the engines.

We are anxious to get ball park estimates for material costs to overhaul a Merlin engine to either operating condition or display standard.

Naturally we are keen to do the overhaul ourselves in house. We would like to overhaul at least one engine to a runnable condition but much depends on costs involved. Mike Irvin needs to know approximately what material costs are involved before starting the work which is quite
understandable from the museum's point of view. Yes, you can quote our
objective statement as a goal but based on condition and inspection and
material cost to restore.

So you can see there is nothing set in stone, but if it looks like they can make one runnable at a price within reach to them, they just might do that. As for why they wouldn't just leave them as they are... this plane as been sitting outside in the elements for the last 40 years. It was just recently put under cover in the storage hanger, the last plane to be put in. You might imagine just how the condition might be of all the non metalic parts. A museum standard rebuild involves replacing these parts, as I understand it.

Mike