Fighter Factory

[Mark Allen M]

How does someone saying that they would rather see the aircraft flying under individual ownership rather than owned by a single entity and static equate to having an opinion on how anybody should run their business?

Well for one my post was pleural and not singular and for two there's examples all through this thread of people's opinions on how Yagan should, or shouldn't run his business. That being said it's quite irrelevant who is saying what at this point as much of what that has been said is full of speculation with quite a bit being proven to be wrong.

[Mudge]

In the first place, anyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether someone else agrees with it or not......Why get into a big hoo-ha about someone's opinion just because you don't agree with it? State your own opinion and leave it at that. There's nothing to be gained by getting into a pi$$in' contest.
These kinds of meaningless arguments are one of the reasons you don't see me on here much anymore.

Mudge

[Mark Allen M]

Alright enough! NO ONE is arguing period! We're grown ups, other than one remark that was a bit strong above, no one is arguing with anyone. In my posts I stated a few things that were none of our business, of which they aren't, and several others have stated their opinions, of which they are certainly entitled to. No big deal so don't make it seen like it is. If this is an argument I certainly don't see it.

And So what, no friggin big deal if I think certain things are not our business and so what if others express their opinions to the contrary, that's what this goofy forum is for. Relax and take it easy. It's ALL been fine. We're usually big boys and girls around here who can handle it.

And no disrespect, but your statement about why you rarely post because of what you describe as meaningless arguments. Really? Is this something you think we all need to know?

I hope you change your mind on that last statement. You usually post quite interesting stuff worth reading.

[lmritger]

I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.

What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall. I live here, as does Liza and Travis, and while I don't get there NEARLY as often as I'd like to, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the folks out at the Museum are beyond tired of all the rampant speculation and piling on that's been going on since June. It is hard, HARD work to continue pouring all your enthusiasm and passion into a facility when there are legitimate questions about the long-term viability of the museum, as there was back in June and July, yet that's exactly what the staff has done, keeping the lights on and doors open and making sure every visitor was welcomed warmly.

And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?

If calling out that BS for what it is gets under people's skin, tough.

Lynn

[JohnTerrell]

I'm really looking forward to seeing what 2014 holds for MAM. As if it were completely overlooked, its great to see the Mig-3, La-9, and genuine original Fw-190 put on display for the public to see.

[redvanner]

I'm really looking forward to seeing what 2014 holds for MAM. As if it were completely overlooked, its great to see the Mig-3, La-9, and genuine original Fw-190 put on display for the public to see.

+ 1!

Let us not forget the Bf 109 G-4 under (re-) build at MeierMotors. I would think she will get airborne in 2014 too.

I am tired of reading the negative attitudes of some people posting in this thread. Instead we should see the positive development since mid 2013!

All the best for MAM, and I am convinced it will getting strong and thriving again, as well as it was before. Don´t ask me why, but I am.

Michael

[Forgotten Field]

This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....

[lmritger]

This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....

Oh, very nice! Thanks, Forgotten Field, I'll update my title directly- what a wonderful thing to wake up to, the Oracle of WIX himself deeming me a "Warbird Expert"!!!

Maybe I should get business cards and a t-shirt and maybe a crown... oh wait, I'd have to challenge him for it. Nah, I'll stick with the t-shirt.

[k5083]

I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.

OK, I'll "state" too.

What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.

Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?

I live here, as does Liza and Travis...

Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.

And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?

Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.

I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

August

[Chad Veich]

Thanks you August for the post, you said it better than I could have. I'm of the opinion that there are a number of folks on this board that are just looking for drama and where none really exists they must try and create it.

[bdk]

This is direct from a warbird expert in Virginia. You just need to read the smoke, and it will tell you exactly what will happen at the Fighter Factory.....

I think that is what happened to one of my postings on this thread- it went up in smoke!

[StangStung]

I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.

OK, I'll "state" too.

What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.

Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?

I live here, as does Liza and Travis...

Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.

And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?

Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.

I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

August

Quoted for truth.

[Mark Allen M]

And my "statement" as well.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

August

Not sure I agree with your analogy above in parallel with Yagan's collection but I do support your theory. I concur that if you are going to operate a "public" enterprise there certainly are aspects of that enterprise that are open to "public" discussion, scrutiny and criticism. But to speculate on the operations of someone's business, no matter public or private, shows a lack of understanding and responsibility. It's one thing to know facts that are true and correct, but quite another to speculate on matters one does not know. And just to make my comments perfectly clear, I am by no means directing these comments at any particular member, there's been a broad range of statements in this thread alone that have very little, if any, actual facts to stand by. And as for a "public" business that warrants comment and criticism, yes there are many aspects of that business that are open for public scrutiny, but there also are many aspects that are not. The "public" aspects of a public business are, and should be, open to public discussion of course, but there should be no misunderstanding that there are private aspects of a public business that are, and should, stay private. Hence the "no one's business"

I believe there is plenty of conversation about Yagan's business that IS warranted for open discussion but when it turns to speculating whether the man could be going to jail for fraudulent behavior (as one example in this thread pointed towards) that's when it becomes not an open mature conversation, but pure nonsense. There's no proof for or against such accusations of fraud so any speculation of such is nothing more than irresponsible.

As for the conversation whether the collection should / could/ will / will not be broken up further, until there is real concrete information from those who actually know better, the pessimistic attitude displayed a few times here is really not worth posting IMO. So far (from the outside) things look to be stabling out at the museum and I personally would like nothing else but for that pattern to continue. Not for me to know and not my business if this pattern continues or folds, but I would rather support the effort with a positive attitude that the museum will rebound and strive for what the original goals seemed to be and that is of a "flying" museum, not a static museum.

I'm of the opinion that there are a number of folks on this board that are just looking for drama and where none really exists they must try and create it.

Perhaps! but I would tend to believe there are some passionate and dedicated supporters of the museum, albeit who may show a bit extra emotion toward this discussion than most, but that they certain have better things to do than stir up drama. I would tend to believe you would be just as passionate if you had an investment on their level.

Opinions I support, as long as those opinions are reasonable and responsible and that's an overview not directed towards most of the opinions in this conversation. Speculation has no place here or anywhere for that matter.

"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."

Last edited by Mark Allen M on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[lmritger]

First off, let me thank you for the well thought out reply, sincerely. I'll respond in a similar manner.

I'm not arguing, I'm stating- there's a difference.

OK, I'll "state" too.

What all these people clamoring to see the planes go elsewhere apparently don't realize is how much of a negative effect this sort of constant carping from the sidelines has on the people that do the work and put in the hours, and what sort of knock-on effect this sort of doomsaying horsehockey has on the Museum overall.

Someday, I wish someone would explain this type of statement. If they know it's just internet horsehockey, how does it have such a negative or knock-on effect?

Because this sort of message traffic gets picked up, seized upon and repeated by the media, and once it's out in the papers and trade journals, it creates a built-in headwind against which the organization must fight. It makes the jobs of the people who work there that much more difficult. Do people have a RIGHT to engage in such discussion? Oh, absolutely... Voltaire's quote seems appropriate here ("I may not agree with a word you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"). The problem is, it's not just about airplanes. It's about the people who work there, the people whose livelihoods depend in one way or another upon the continued good health of the Museum... and that health depends in large part upon whether there is a collection to display or not.

I live here, as does Liza and Travis...

Which makes your selfish interest in keeping the planes near where you live very understandable. Just don't make out like it's more selfish when people who don't live there express a preference for seeing them somewhere else.

I mentioned that in the spirit of full disclosure, August. Obviously I have a selfish interest in the collection remaining here and remaining intact. I would not be impacted *financially* by the dissolution of the collection- lots and lots of other people would though, and it would represent a significant loss to our region as well.

And yet now that things are finally returning to normal, and despite the numerous positive updates that have been posted from people including myself who have been told the information face-to-face, there are still people who selfishly want to see the collection broken up and dispersed to the four winds- and for what? What do these people get out of it, beyond some sort of macabre self-satisfaction that they helped heap dirt on one of the finest collections in the US, if not the entire world?

Some on this forum are concerned and/or pessimistic about the future of the collection and are allowing for the possibility that things that have been told to people face-to-face are not the whole story or are overly optimistic.

Your last sentence, about people getting some kind of satisfaction out of heaping dirt on a warbird collection, just shows a complete uncomprehension of what people are saying. Nodoby here has any interest in doing that, and you should know better than to insult them by saying so.

I'm not so sure I agree with your optimistic views here. Ever since this surfaced, there seems to have been a certain element almost rooting for the place to fail. Yes, it's fair to be concerned, particularly back when all this unfolded- those of us who live around here were far more concerned than most, with the staff and employees most affected. As I've come to know people out at the facility though, the long-range impact of those lingering doubts has come more clearly into focus as I noted earlier. I fully admit I'm effectively a nobody in this saga- I'm an interested and highly engaged enthusiast with some friends who have been directly impacted by the events of the past few months. But knowing those good folks has also given me a bit of a closer insight than most average observers, and I've tried to share the positive outlook here only to be either a) ignored or b) mocked. Unproductive as it is, I can handle mockery and will give as good as I get, but what's most irritating to me is that this ongoing focus on the *aircraft* ignores the fate of the *people*. I hope that makes sense.

I support the collection and am grateful to Mr. Yagen as well as to the generous trade-school students, or the federal student loan program, or whoever it is who ultimately supplied the funds to build it. It is nice to have a large collection, even if static, in that area, and I am not one of those people who thinks of static planes as "dead", "rotting" or somehow worthless. Still, I'm in league with those who regret that so many fine airworthy collections have been indefinitely grounded when their patrons lost the interest or means to keep them operating. It has left us with museums full of planes that are not restored authentically enough to be truly museum-worthy static exhibits, largely because of the compromises needed to make them fly; yet they don't fly.

You surely are not alone when looking at a place like the Museum of Flight or what have you, and thinking "Boy, wouldn't it be great to see X fly"... I had that same thought looking at the Oscar up in Seattle. Thing is, even a fully static museum environment can be a tremendous asset to the historical aviation community, provided it's run and staffed by people with a passion for the subject and who do their best to share that passion as widely as possible.

Finally, as far as what is our "business" to talk about, I like to think of it in terms of sports teams. I suppose the Yankees and Rangers are none of "my business" since I don't own the teams; I just buy a ticket once in a while. Still, their owners campaign them in public and want people to be fans -- to root for and even against them. When they trade players, I believe that's part of what I am supposed to be interested in as a fan. When you open your airplane collection to the public, display it at airshows, publish NEWSletters about it (news = everyone's business), you welcome comment, including criticism. If you don't want comment, you can lock the doors and keep your business private.

Ref. my earlier comment about Voltaire... all I want is for people to just THINK for a second about the folks who work there before joining the "Sell'Em All!" brigade.

Regards,

Lynn

[K5DH]

I have an actual question for the WIX braintrust. How many aircraft are (or were) part of Jerry Yagen's incredible collection which would not exist today, or would exist only as wreckage, if Jerry had not taken them on and had them restored? This includes fliers and statics. It's gotta be a bunch. And I know that he has a number of wrecked airframes in storage which could form the basis for future restorations.