Warbird Information Exchange

Brad

I was unaware that the 343FG in the Aleutians were involved in the 'Russian' story! I know Alaska use to belong to Russia but that was a few years before!

To be fair, there is nearly as many P40's carrying the markings of the 343rd Fighter Group. What makes this different is this airframe actually belonged to the unit!

To think, P47D-28-RA 42-29150 'Dottie Mae' might have ended up at this museum. Goodness knows what markings she would have carried!

regards

Mark

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'Coups De Foudre'
(511FS, 405FG watering hole), St Dizier, France 1944/45

"Where does the code of ethics stand on giving people credit for achieving flight first?"

Dude this is the wrong thread for this conversation, that's like me saying I hear a clunk in my transmission, so would you paint the bathroom....

If the Smithsonian were to paint invasion stripes on the Wright Flyer, well then that's a horse of a different color.

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Andrew King
Air Museum Director with no Museum to Direct
Open to Suggestions

The only code of ethics that should apply to this conversation are the "Code of Ethics for Museums" and the only excuse any particular museum has for misrepresenting any artifact they display is a poor one. It would be one thing for a museum to publicly pronounce their exhibits as "similar to the original" or an "example of an original" but to display an item any other way than as accurately as possible is nothing short of irresponsible. The only rule that applies by a responsible Museum code of ethics, and should always apply, is simply to avoid displaying any artifact in a museum publicly if not capable of displaying that artifact authentically and accurately.

I would have to question the motives of any museums curators and management if authenticity and accuracy were not of the highest concern. I have no association with the museum in question so my comments will remain general in nature, but I have contributed to other museums from time to time so I feel I have a bit of a right to contribute an opinion here.

As for the museum in question the only thoughts that come to mind are those of motives for their decisions, of which are none of my business, and the idea of lost opportunities, of which I can only view from someone on the outside. Seems they have their reasons for the direction they have taken with their displays. A bit baffling to me, but again not my business nor an inviting attempt to receive my business.

Mark

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Zero Surprise!!...

Mark, I know the history of this airplane. I was making a comment about the story they obviously want to tell and equating it to a previous remark that was made about the number of Russian P-40 recoveries and the lack of ones restored in those colors.

I know what it costs to restore a Corsair because the invoice crosses my desk every month. With our project, just like these we are talking about now, lots of people stand on the sidelines and bitch about decisions I should have made. But there is an obvious shortage of those same people when it comes to the monthly check being written.

Anybody that is offended by what this museum chooses to do with their airplanes, by all means, express your displeasure by not going there. Write them and tell them why you aren't going there and what you think of their ethics when it comes to displays. If you send a nice check to them as well, they will pay a lot more attention to you. Better yet, before the P-40 is put on display, offer to pay to have it painted and marked accurately and then sponsor the display that tells about it. Now is the time to do it before it's hung on the ceiling. I'm certain they would be thankful for your generousity.

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Brad

Brad,
I too know what it costs to restore a Corsair and I am looked at being a picky, pain in the butt, know it all sometimes because I insist on trying to do the best job capable, will it be 100% concourse no it wont but it will be as close as we have the ability to.
The point here is preserving the history when you have a historical airframe or artifact. The FG1-D we are restoring had no unique history but she was in WW2 (by 2 weeks) when finished it will be done in the original marking. Is a tri color scheme more popular sure but it's not correct.

When you have the opportunity to save something with real combat history, you do that. I think as many around here might, that it's simply a misrepresentation. It's much akin to shaving MacArthur's head and saying it's Ike... they are both men, both soldiers, whats the difference....

I run a museum, I hear the comments and we take them to heart, we don't pass the buck. A gallon of paint costs the same, just apply it properly.

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Andrew King
Air Museum Director with no Museum to Direct
Open to Suggestions

Generally speaking and with all due respect I'm quite convinced there are several folks here who have earned the right to express their opinions / concerns regarding the direction this and other museums are, and have taken. As for the check writing theory, I'm also quite convinced many folks here have earned the right not to hear that one rehashed as well. I personally understand the logic behind the opinions being posted in support of the "put your money where your mouth is" logic, but at the same time it's only fair those who may not agree with others opinions at least respect those opinions. Most of us should know by now that when speaking of financial contributions that the more funds acquired doesn't necessarily equate to better decision making. This thread seems not necessarily heavy in negative comments but rather strong in constructive criticism and that's usually not a bad thing.

M

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Zero Surprise!!...

Since we're questioning why the paint isn't original, do we know what original was. Does anyone know what the serial number is/was for sure. Why did they take a wrecked P-40 with an "F" model cowl and call it an "E" model. If the wreck really is an "E" model then the cowl isn't original to it anyway. If it's an "F" model then there's more to question than just the paint they chose.

Drew, we are talking two totally different restorations on two totally different levels. To compare the cost of a flying restoration to a static one is totally unrealistic. I've been involved in both now and they are apples and oranges in two separate boxes on the opposite sides of the road.

When ours is done, maybe we will have some spares that will be of use to y'all, depending on how far along y'all are.

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Brad

I think you doth protest too much.

Allowing that there is value in historical research, then the same 'whiners' you decry are an invaluable resource for a museum making an attempt to be accurate. A simple request here, or at any number of other sites (including modelling sites - if you think WiX has whiny rivet counters, you ain't seen nuthin yet!) would produce a huge amount of documentation in short order for just about any paint scheme you could ask for.
A well researched accurate paint scheme should cost very little more than a slap-dash cartoon scheme. Looking at the "Vaught" referenced above, it would have cost no more to have properly laid out, authentic national markings than the disproportionate ones on it.

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Lest Hero-worship raise it's head and cloud our vision, remember that World War II was fought and won by the same sort of twenty-something punks we wouldn't let our daughters date.

The real problem is that often times, these sort of plans are thought up by boards and committees and not historians or curators.

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Andrew King
Air Museum Director with no Museum to Direct
Open to Suggestions

You hit the nail right on the head!

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Curator - EAA Aviation Museum, Oshkosh, WI
"Let No Story Go Untold!"
http://www.timelessvoices.org

a third on this particular notion!

I only hope that the shop pleaded the case for an accurate paint scheme. I feel like as a restoration shop it's your duty to inform the client of what they have and the historical value of going one way or the other. Say a museum came to a shop with a P-38 project for static and wants it done as "Yippee". While doing research the shop finds out that it was flown by a triple ace and involved in some major battles. You need to say something.

I'm pretty sure the paint scheme on the wreckage of this aircraft isn't real but still, it may have some historic value. A hint at the serial number would help.

One hundred years from now 99% of the population will think all P-40's had sharks mouths unless as restorers we realize that many times the client doesn't know what he has. Being a restorer of anything also makes you a historian and a teacher.

Warbirds are history pieces. Yes they can be painted however the owner wants. But for the majority here we want to PRESERVE history CORRECTLY. I am not against something of historical importants being done up into something else. But I think where most people here get depressed is that some aircraft are already representing the same group. In order to REALLY honor everyone during ww2 or what have you I think most just want to see other groups get represented. I love the AVG. But their story has already been told. There are so many people and groups out there that deserve remembrance. We can't just keep honoring 2 or 3 groups and forget the rest. What does that tell them? Or their families? If this is hard to understand then I don't know what to tell you.

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