Warbird Information Exchange

Hello Everyone,

We have a possible Greenland expedition in the works for this summer, if we can get together a crew of capable, motivated guys willing to donate some time.

Several of us camped on the icecap for about 2 weeks in the summer of 2011 and located one of the P38's with a ground penetrating radar. Yes, it is deep.

Our plan is to basically replicate the process used in the 1992 recovery. We have met with most of the original group and several of them have offered advice and information which is gladly accepted.

We have two aircraft for the operation - one being a Wilga 80 and the other an AN2. These might seem like odd choices, however there are several benefits to each;

Wilga - has a geared radial turning a large prop, with lots of low end pulling power that is very important when taking off from soft, slushy snow on a warm afternoon at full gross. It is slow - but has very good STOL characteristics. It has factory built pneumatic retractable skis that work quite well. We flew to the icecap and back numerous times with it in 2011.

AN2 - these airplanes are rugged, designed for unimproved fields, have tremendous load carrying capabilities, and again, very good STOL characteristics. Full span flaps - slow approach and landing speeds that would be desirable landing on snow covered ice cap in various conditions. They are inexpensive and relatively easy to work on. One downside with the AN2 is there are no commerically available retractable wheel skis for them. We dealt with this obstacle by purchasing a set of straight skis, designed and built our own retract system and modified them to retractable wheel skis. It flight tested successfully on winter snow in upstate NY.

The Wilga and several tons of equipment are currently in storage in Kulusuk, Greenland.

The intent is to recover one of the P38's, eventually restore it to fly, and place it in a local flying museum in northern Calif. area. It is not a 'for profit' commercial venture.

If the recovery was successful, it's possible further attempts could be made on the remaining aircraft, although it appears the main group of them have drifted in to a crevasse field at this point.

Several potential recovery groups have attempted to raise funds seeking donations or sponsors, however it seems finding substantial financial support is a difficult prospect.

While donations will be gladly accepted, our project is being funded primarily 'out of pocket' so cost control is a major factor. The objective is to keep costs as minimal as possible without sacrificing safety or risk failing the mission. In spite of attempts to keep costs within reason, it is a very expensive project.

In general, we will cover costs for our crew including some travel, food, most of the gear needed, etc, but can not compensate for time.

We are looking for a few truly qualified, motivated, hard working individuals who could donate some time to help recover a very rare warbird and participate in the ultimate adventure.

The project would proceed in steps or 'phases' depending on success of the previous step.

Initially, we need;
- A&P or two, plus maybe two more capable assistant mechanics to finish some repairs on our AN2 and complete a thorough annual or 'condition inspection' in upstate New York. This would need to take place early May to mid May - about one month from now.

- Qualified pilot to fly the AN2 from upstate NY to Kulusuk Greenland. Target deparature date approx May 25.

- A&P and ideally IA to help re-assemble the Wilga currently in storage in Greenland, perform an annual and flight testing. Target for this step early June.

- pilot(s) to help fly aircraft with supplies and people to/from the ice cap. Most of June and July.

- several guys that are physically fit, cold weather experienced, with basic mechanical/fabrication skills to help set up main camp, boiler, hoist and frame system, electrical system, melting cone, etc.

There is a copy of the history channel documentary that covers the 1992 recovery and restoration on youtube - appears to be 4 parts - search on 'the lost squadron' or 'hunt for the lost squadron'

We will set up a facebook page within a day or two with some photos and additional information on the project. Title will be something like 'Lost Squadron - Greenland' a quick search should find the page.

For guys that are truly interested in assisting with the project, please email me at GreenlandP38@gmail.com and include a list of qualifications.

With enough determination, dollars, commitment, and luck, perhaps we can recover at least one more of the Greenland P38's.

Thank you.

Ken Mc Bride

Pilot, A&P, IA, original Epps Greenland Society member. Have worked on Wilgas. Have worked in Greenland. PM Sent.

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All I did was press this red button here...

Best of luck on this project. Sounds worthwhile. Please do post your Facebook page info when you are ready.

Im always excited to see news about future potential recoveries of these aircraft. It seems counterproductive to go up there to just pull up one. But then again, it looks like it took a he!! of an effort to pull up just GG.

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Keep Em' Flying,
Christopher Soltis
Dedicated to the preservation and education of The Sikorsky Memorial Airport

CASC Blog Page: http://ctair-space.blogspot.com/
Warbird Wear: https://www.redbubble.com/people/warbirdwear/shop

Chicks Dig Warbirds.......right?

Another aircraft you may want to use on this expedition is the PZL 101 (Yak-12) especially with the upgraded M14P engine. They
didn't really catch on with the civilian market but seat 5, extremely rugged, and can carry anything you can put in it. Twice the payload, and half the cost of the Wilga.

With the quality of work and efforts put into restorations today, I would offer that the two B-17s are also worth retrieving no matter what condition they are in. If they can be recovered, I think it would be possible to rebuild these and add them to the B-17 population.

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"They done it, they done it, damned if they ain't flew." December 17, 1903

If I recall correctly, the original recovery effort in previous decades also hoped to get the B-17s as well, but the B-17's as well as Glacier Girl were found crushed under the hundreds of feet of ice. The B-17s were even more crushed than the P-38- as in flat. So you would have a flat, bent, torn up B-17, that would need to be cut into even more pieces to be brought to the surface. You would likely end up with a 90%+ total rebuild (a "data plate" restoration). This would likely run many, many millions, and many years and there are other B-17 projects that would cost far less to complete, or to just save. So yes, they could be retireved and rebuilt, and the provenance of a recovered Glacier B-17 would indeed be neat and a big draw, but is it the best use of money?

Don't mean to be a party pooper, and if someone bankrolls it great.... but there is more than one B-17 above the ice that could use some TLC.

Actually I wonder if Paul Allen would step up to the plate for that - his B-17E was totally gutted out to haul cargo; all the E-model internal parts from Big Stoop and Do Do would go a long way toward bringing that plane back to stock condition (and Desert Rat/Tangerine could benefit as well).

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All right, Mister Dorfmann, start pullin'!
Pilot: "Flap switch works hard in down position."
Mechanic: "Flap switch checked OK. Pilot needs more P.T." - Flight report, TB-17G 42-102875 (Hobbs AAF)

How scarce is avgas in Greenland?

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Defending Stearmans on WIX since Jeff started badmouthing them back in 2005.

Ken
So if this airplane is recovered what are the plans for it?
Will it be restored(realistically every part built new like GGirl) to fly?
(you have most all the original GGirl parts in containers, they arent on the flying airplane.)
or will it sit in your warehouses never to see the skies again like your other airplanes in storage?
Not trying to dog you, just asking some real world questions. It doesnt appear that you restore to fly or even restore to put in museum any of your airplanes.

Re. recovery of B17's - it might be feasible, but based on what was found in 1990, they're really crushed. Realistically, I think it would be relatively small components that might be salvageable - and the cost to retrieve those pieces would be tremendous. I would guess a mostly new build B17 airframe is cost prohibitive.

Even the P38's will likely be in very rough shape at this point - crushed, twisted, and torn apart, no doubt worse than the one retrieved in 1992. The benefit is that they are complete - everything is there - all the fittings, forgings, castings, landing gear, control system parts, hydraulic system, motor mounts - all the pieces needed for a major rebuild project, which it certainly would be. Airframe would probably be 90% new build.

Re. av-gas in Greenland - yes, it's available... something around $20./gallon 3 years ago....

Re. plans for a recovered P38 - yes, restore to fly would be the ultimate goal. It took 10 years to rebuild 'GG' and likely would take a similar amount of time now, depending on how many guys, skill level, shop with proper equipment, etc.

Re. my other projects - yes, some have been sitting for 10 years at this point, a couple longer than that.
I am currently running a manufacturing operation overseas, a local wholesale distribution business, and an engine overhaul operation. My work days often exceed 12 hours. In my 'spare' time, I chase up parts for the projects, keep a Stearman flying, and a few other things.
Setting up a museum is part of the plan, and I have spent considerable time researching land adjacent to a couple local airports to build a facility and obtain 'through the fence' privileges. Initially, several of the projects would be assembled for static display while others are under restoration to fly. I anticipate some changes in my business schedule in the next couple years to focus on the airplanes. Time is going by very fast these days...

Ken

Ken, IMHO, is closest to the reality. The dollar value of the B-17 parts would be less than the cost to bring them up. YOu would start with "mining " every bit of P-38 "unobtainium" that could be brought up. Some day these parts would go towards building up airworthy and static airframes. THere are just a handful of P-38 airframes to work with at the present and the only one for sale has an asking price of $6.75 million. B-17's are $3.5 million and there are more of them out there, expecially if you count the ones on outdoor display with the USAF.
MY investment money would be on retrieving the P-38 parts.

Wow. Welcome, Mr McBride...Beyond this P-38 adventure, it'd be great to hear about plans and progress down the road on your ex-Soplata Corsair, old "Akron Double Nuts" as I call it. It sounds like you've been "getting while the getting was good" through the years with a solid plan for later restoration and display...good to hear.

A Wilga! Haven't seen one in years. There used to be one here in southern Ontario that always got used to tow Oscar Boesch's sailplane aloft for his airshow routine. Usually the Wilga itself performed in the show too. Took off and landed in a ridiculously short distance, and of course it had gobs of character, too. Should be a useful bird on the P-38 expedition. WIX looks forward to hearing more and more about this plan!

Cheers

Steve T

We have a facebook page up with some photos of the 2011 expedition to the icecap, and test flying the AN2 on our modified skis in upstate NY.
FB page title 'Lost Squadron - Greenland'.

We've had several qualified guys respond, but uncertain schedules/availability at this point. We still need an A&P along with a couple skilled hands-on mechanics to get the AN2 'annualed' or condition inspection completed in NY from approx May 2 to May 14. We'll do a number of local flights after work completed to ensure all is well.

Also still need an experienced pilot to fly the AN2 from upstate NY to Kulusuk, Greenland, from about May 25 to approx. June 1.

If you have the qualifications, and are able to commit some time, please contact me at GreenlandP38@gmail.com

Thank you.

Ken

If only I had enough leave I would fly up there from Australia to lend you all a hand.