Team prepares for another P-38 "Lost Squadron" recovery

[JohnB]

I do wonder if the ice is deeper than 20 years ago?

If you a fan of global warming theories, the parts might be on top...or if your skeptical...they might be where they were last time or deeper.

Just curious.

[CoastieJohn]

I do wonder if the ice is deeper than 20 years ago?

If you a fan of global warming theories, the parts might be on top...or if your skeptical...they might be where they were last time or deeper.

Just curious.

I would say not in that area. I have 1941 and current pics of a spot about 30 miles away and you can definitely tell the difference in ice level. WRT the aircraft, I'll suggest between gravity pulling them down and the buildup of new layers of ice, they are a little bit deeper. Ya never know for sure how much though. The science of studying ice is pretty interesting. What you would not want is for them to hit the bedrock below. That would rip them apart as the ice moves

[JDK]

If you a fan of global warming theories, the parts might be on top...or if your skeptical...they might be where they were last time or deeper.

Not how the science of this kind of snow to ice pack works. Have a read up on it, but very simplistically the melt occurs at the edge of the ice pack, while precipitation continues to pack from above, the snow making ice. The only way they'll appear of their own volition is off the edge, similar to the glacier mouth.

Regards,

[KMcBride]

We located one of the P38's in 2011 with ground penetrating radar - it is substantially deeper than they were in 1992 but should still be recoverable.

See posting titled 'Greenland P38 Recovery Expedition'

We do have some qualified guys committing to the project, however we could still use help getting the AN2 through 'annual' and prepared for a long flight north - this is planned for approx. May 8 thru May 20. Any A&P's out there willing to help with this - or capable hands on assistant mechanics - please contact us. The airplane is in upstate NY, not far from Seneca Falls.

We could also use a couple more guys that could assist with setting up camp on the icecap, as well as the hoist, boiler, generators, loading/unloading aircraft, etc.

Please contact us if interested - email GreenlandP38@gmail.com and/or check out the facebook page - search
'Lost Squadron - Greenland'

Thank you.

Ken Mc Bride

[cooper9411]

Ken message sent.

[CoastieJohn]

Gratuitous pic of SE coast of Greenland taken Saturday.

[cooper9411]

Have not heard anything in awhile regarding this. Anyone have any news or updates as to what if anything is happening?

[CoastieJohn]

Nope.

The Duck Hunt team is still there about 25-30 miles away. No word from them either.

[Peeler]

Mechanical issues with the AN-2 keep popping up and with the short Summer window a delay of several weeks postpones the mission for another year. That was the case again this year. A few members of the team did visit the Grumman Duck site to perform some GPR work. There was some promising results but without excavation equipment we can't say exactly what was found. We will know more next Summer.

[GARY HILTON]

Just a thought.....according to the Gore Group, shouldn't the ice be getting thinner due to global warming? I have read about this effect and heard about it on the news, seems the problem now would be with flooding???

[Peeler]

Just a thought.....according to the Gore Group, shouldn't the ice be getting thinner due to global warming? I have read about this effect and heard about it on the news, seems the problem now would be with flooding???

Yes, if we all wait long enough they will end up as hood ornaments on icebergs. From there they will sink to the bottom of the ocean.

Seriously, the surface of the ice and snow changes drastically between July and October. The Duck site is heavily sloped but the Lost Squadron site is fairly flat. The main group of the Lost Squadron are very close to deep crevasses which is going to make future recovery very dangerous.

[old iron]

Climate Change (primarily warming) is in effect - the scientific evidence is very substantial - but this should not be oversimplified to mean 'less snow' or 'less ice.' In high latitudes, warming can mean more warm air, which includes more moisture. It is still freezing up there, and so that can mean more snow.

Another point is that the ice should not be seen as an absolute solid that preserves the plane intact - the ice flows, and has some of the behavior of flowing water, just at a slower rate. The ice at this depth is stronger than the metal and over time will tear the planes apart. This will especially be the case as the glacier begins to move more rapidly towards the coast. I have not seen any information on how fast the lateral movement is but it could be on the realm of several hundred meters per year. This rate should increase with climate change (warming) as the calving rate at the end of the glacial will increase.

My guess is that the P-38s will be found to be in much poorer condition than they were in 1992, with a lot less of the parts being potentially flight capable. I understand that most of "Glacier Girl" had to be replaced, and I would guess that would be much more the case with GG2. Of course, some say one only needs a data plate to sell the craft as original. Still, a substantially reconstructed aircraft without a lot of original parts (engine, landing gear parts, some fittings?), and with very high recovery costs.

Who will have the money for this, especially considering that flight-ready P-38s are available and will come up for sale, and that the first glacier-recovered P-38 will still get most of the publicity?

[CoastieJohn]

Climate Change (primarily warming) is in effect - the scientific evidence is very substantial - but this should not be oversimplified to mean 'less snow' or 'less ice.' In high latitudes, warming can mean more warm air, which includes more moisture. It is still freezing up there, and so that can mean more snow.

Another point is that the ice should not be seen as an absolute solid that preserves the plane intact - the ice flows, and has some of the behavior of flowing water, just at a slower rate. The ice at this depth is stronger than the metal and over time will tear the planes apart. This will especially be the case as the glacier begins to move more rapidly towards the coast. I have not seen any information on how fast the lateral movement is but it could be on the realm of several hundred meters per year. This rate should increase with climate change (warming) as the calving rate at the end of the glacial will increase.

My guess is that the P-38s will be found to be in much poorer condition than they were in 1992, with a lot less of the parts being potentially flight capable. I understand that most of "Glacier Girl" had to be replaced, and I would guess that would be much more the case with GG2. Of course, some say one only needs a data plate to sell the craft as original. Still, a substantially reconstructed aircraft without a lot of original parts (engine, landing gear parts, some fittings?), and with very high recovery costs.

Who will have the money for this, especially considering that flight-ready P-38s are available and will come up for sale, and that the first glacier-recovered P-38 will still get most of the publicity?

I have historical govt imagery of a nearby area going back to 1940 I believe it is. Comparing what the ice level is then and what it is now you can definitely see the ice level has decreased since the 1940's. It's probably been decreasing (melting) well before that too. I would be careful about relying "scientific evidence" as I also have a newspaper article or two from back then with scientists discussing another possible ice age coming.

Ref the aircraft.....someone who looked at one of the B-17's up there said the weight of the ice crushed the airframe. The P-38 designed is supposed to a little more stouter than the B-17 and can hold up better. I'm thinking if any airframe is caught between a crevasse or two it would be slowly ripped apart.

[old iron]

as I also have a newspaper article or two from back then with scientists discussing another possible ice age coming.

Yep, and I can probably come up with a newspaper article-equivalent that has the sun going around the earth, once each day.

But Science has a process for learning things. If you want to believe your newspaper article that comes from a time when we thought continents always stayed in place and that something could not be landed on the moon due to the thick layer of dust, and place more value on that newspaper article than all the research done by a wide diversity of very smart people over the past twenty years, then there is nothing that I can do for you.

I can, however, offer the following advice: bigger leaches are better than smaller leaches at taking care of your medical needs.

[Peeler]

"Who will have the money for this, especially considering that flight-ready P-38s are available and will come up for sale, and that the first glacier-recovered P-38 will still get most of the publicity?"



Old Iron, are you kidding me? There are only a half dozen of these planes in the world flying today. You lose a lot of credibility when you make statements like this.

There are other things that motivate people beyond money. I think you will find that fact very prevalent with those who chase and restore warbirds. Ken McBride's interest in recovering a P-38 is the restoration and making it available as a flying museum. There is zero profit motivation for him or anyone working on the team.