B-47 parts near Wright-Patterson
Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:31 am
On the thread "Vintage Jets" there are shots of a B-47 nose section that someone recently got from the surplus sales office at Wright-Patterson.
That led to a discussion of what AC it is.
According to the excellent website "www.B47.com" the site of the B-47 Stratojet Association.
"52-0410 was one of two B-47s operated by the US Navy until the late 1970s. It's final flight took place in December, 1977 when it was flown to Pease AFB, NH and put on display at the main gate. Following the closure of Pease AFB in 1991, it was disassembled and trucked to Ellsworth AFB, SD where it now awaits reassembly. More recent information (Dec 2002) has indicated this project was unable to be completed. The nose section and engines were now being sent to Dayton OH to be used on the RB-47H 52-4299 project. "
(I'm not sure how accurate this is...since the "nose section" is the part shown in the recent junk yard photos).
According to Alwyn T. Lloyd's new B-47 Book, it was disassembled at Pease to go to Ellsworth, but one there, " funds did not exist to reassemble it" (Page 202), so it was "parted out" to aid in other B-47 restorations. I wasn't aware there were other B-47 restorations other than the RB-47 at the NMUSAF.
My questions are:
1. Is that the remains of this AC?
2.Why couldn't have been reassembled at Ellsworth?
I hate to seem cynical BUT was it really that bad..or just a handy (i.e. homeless, so no one would mind) source of parts for the higher profile restoration for the NMUSAF?
Anyone with a source at the museum? I'd love to know the answer.
Think I'd get an answer if I asked the Museum's public affairs staff?
That led to a discussion of what AC it is.
According to the excellent website "www.B47.com" the site of the B-47 Stratojet Association.
"52-0410 was one of two B-47s operated by the US Navy until the late 1970s. It's final flight took place in December, 1977 when it was flown to Pease AFB, NH and put on display at the main gate. Following the closure of Pease AFB in 1991, it was disassembled and trucked to Ellsworth AFB, SD where it now awaits reassembly. More recent information (Dec 2002) has indicated this project was unable to be completed. The nose section and engines were now being sent to Dayton OH to be used on the RB-47H 52-4299 project. "
(I'm not sure how accurate this is...since the "nose section" is the part shown in the recent junk yard photos).
According to Alwyn T. Lloyd's new B-47 Book, it was disassembled at Pease to go to Ellsworth, but one there, " funds did not exist to reassemble it" (Page 202), so it was "parted out" to aid in other B-47 restorations. I wasn't aware there were other B-47 restorations other than the RB-47 at the NMUSAF.
My questions are:
1. Is that the remains of this AC?
2.Why couldn't have been reassembled at Ellsworth?
I hate to seem cynical BUT was it really that bad..or just a handy (i.e. homeless, so no one would mind) source of parts for the higher profile restoration for the NMUSAF?
Anyone with a source at the museum? I'd love to know the answer.
Think I'd get an answer if I asked the Museum's public affairs staff?
Last edited by JBoyle on Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:07 am
The B-47 nose screams out the a/c at Pease AFB to me. I'd have to check my photos but that blue area is unique (I think) to the wing that was there or at least the aircraft on display.
Mon Feb 13, 2006 12:36 pm
Am I the only one who is disturbed and finds this whole evolution appalling?
I can't understand the thought process of an entity in the historic aircraft preservation arena, that would condone the practice of scrapping rare or hard to aircraft.
I can see using one aircraft to restore another. But you DON'T scrap that leftovers (which in this case were rather significant). You store them for some unforseen future reason. Who knows one day the restored aircraft may suffer damage and need additional parts or some other aircraft might needs parts. Or maybe as in this case the original aircraft might be resureccted and restored. I know there are few F-84Fs that are in need of assemblies and parts.
My overall point is that these are historically valuable aircraft and are a extremely limited resource. Therefore you don't bulldoze them. You don't toss them around the scrapyard. And you certianly don't cut them up. You put them in a nice quiet fenced in storage area where the aircraft can wait there turn.
Now I know we are talking about the NMUSAF here. And they might just aswell say that they are our aircraft and we can do with them want we like. But how can I have faith in a Museum that is in one hand preserving aircraft and destroying them in the other? If the museum deems the aircraft and parts unservicable or inexcess to the needs of the Museum then you properly dispose of them or check with others to find them a home. You don't make them more unservicable by tearing them apart. Now i admit I might be a little off the mark in saying the museum is responsible for this. They may have just simply turn the airframes in to DRMO and the DRMO folks made the call to destroy the aircraft as per their regulations I'm sure. But you know what? I do hold the Museum responsible. The have the resposibilty to preserve history for future generations to come not perpetuate it's destruction. I say Bad Show on the NMUSAF part in all this.
Lil pissed
Shay
___________
Semper Fortis
I can't understand the thought process of an entity in the historic aircraft preservation arena, that would condone the practice of scrapping rare or hard to aircraft.
I can see using one aircraft to restore another. But you DON'T scrap that leftovers (which in this case were rather significant). You store them for some unforseen future reason. Who knows one day the restored aircraft may suffer damage and need additional parts or some other aircraft might needs parts. Or maybe as in this case the original aircraft might be resureccted and restored. I know there are few F-84Fs that are in need of assemblies and parts.
My overall point is that these are historically valuable aircraft and are a extremely limited resource. Therefore you don't bulldoze them. You don't toss them around the scrapyard. And you certianly don't cut them up. You put them in a nice quiet fenced in storage area where the aircraft can wait there turn.
Now I know we are talking about the NMUSAF here. And they might just aswell say that they are our aircraft and we can do with them want we like. But how can I have faith in a Museum that is in one hand preserving aircraft and destroying them in the other? If the museum deems the aircraft and parts unservicable or inexcess to the needs of the Museum then you properly dispose of them or check with others to find them a home. You don't make them more unservicable by tearing them apart. Now i admit I might be a little off the mark in saying the museum is responsible for this. They may have just simply turn the airframes in to DRMO and the DRMO folks made the call to destroy the aircraft as per their regulations I'm sure. But you know what? I do hold the Museum responsible. The have the resposibilty to preserve history for future generations to come not perpetuate it's destruction. I say Bad Show on the NMUSAF part in all this.
Lil pissed
Shay
___________
Semper Fortis
Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:27 pm
If you only knew what has gone into the dumpsters at many of our largest, well respected and greatest aviation museums......
Sad but true.
Jerry
Sad but true.
Jerry
Mon Feb 13, 2006 6:54 pm
Any guess's as to where the rest of her is? Maybe we can rally an effort and enough support to save all her assemblies and get her put back together.
Shay
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Semper Fortis
Shay
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Semper Fortis
Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:59 pm
I don't know if this will help but here is a picture of a sticker that was inside the fuselage near the pilot. He also said that this was the last B-47 that was flown.
Tue Feb 14, 2006 7:50 am
Can anyone confirm that the remainder of the 52-0410 is still in South Dakota?
Shay
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Semper Fortis
Shay
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Semper Fortis
Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:27 pm
Right there with you Shay - if it had been just pieces parts I could see it being dumped but not in the condition it is in - what a sad sick joke. There was a F-111 at Sheppard AFB that suffered the same fate - it had been an ex-509th Bomb Wing plane and the reply our museum got when we asked about the airframe was essentially, "too bad, so sad, now go away" Probably not that big a deal to anyone else but it would have been a great draw for the museum and we would have been footing the bill to move the already demilled plane. Alas, maybe I'll keep this Diet coke can and paint it camo and put it on display 
Tom P.
Tom P.
Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:53 pm
I recieved this response to an eamil I sent to B-47.com:
Shay;
Yes, sadly we were aware of the demise of EB-47E 52-410.
The USAF turned over to the USAF Museum the control of most all static aircraft where ever they are, as long as they are on military reservations. However its un-clear who has control on static aircraft when not on a military reservation. At present we know of I think 24 planes that are on static display. Two are, or will soon be, in mint condition. Thats the one B-47E at the old SAC Museum in Nebraska and the RB-47K in Dayton. As a counting goes, thats 1% of the fleet and the cost of keeping these planes in a suitable viewing state are enormous. I have no figures on the cost but I do know a crew has been working for almost a year at Hill AFB getting 51-2360 put back together and in a suitable viewing state. Of course none of these will ever fly again as that cost would be prohibitive, and as far as I know there are not 6 of the J-47 Engines left anywhere. Last one to fly was in June 1986 (20 years ago now) and it nearly was lost on landing.
I would doubt that there is anything we or anyone else except perhaps Bill Gates could do anything to be able to get 52-410 back and into a viewing state. I think we should concentrate our efforts on keeping what we do have in the best state we can. I think all but two of these planes are sitting out in weather that requires them to be refurbished about every 10 years and that in itself is no small job. The two B-47's mentioned above should last us 50 years or more as long as they are kept in the enclosed condition they are currently in.
I do thank you for your concern and your interest to make sure we were aware of this injustice to our history. I also want to thank you for your interest in the B-47.
Jim Diamond
www.b-47.com
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Shay;
Yes, sadly we were aware of the demise of EB-47E 52-410.
The USAF turned over to the USAF Museum the control of most all static aircraft where ever they are, as long as they are on military reservations. However its un-clear who has control on static aircraft when not on a military reservation. At present we know of I think 24 planes that are on static display. Two are, or will soon be, in mint condition. Thats the one B-47E at the old SAC Museum in Nebraska and the RB-47K in Dayton. As a counting goes, thats 1% of the fleet and the cost of keeping these planes in a suitable viewing state are enormous. I have no figures on the cost but I do know a crew has been working for almost a year at Hill AFB getting 51-2360 put back together and in a suitable viewing state. Of course none of these will ever fly again as that cost would be prohibitive, and as far as I know there are not 6 of the J-47 Engines left anywhere. Last one to fly was in June 1986 (20 years ago now) and it nearly was lost on landing.
I would doubt that there is anything we or anyone else except perhaps Bill Gates could do anything to be able to get 52-410 back and into a viewing state. I think we should concentrate our efforts on keeping what we do have in the best state we can. I think all but two of these planes are sitting out in weather that requires them to be refurbished about every 10 years and that in itself is no small job. The two B-47's mentioned above should last us 50 years or more as long as they are kept in the enclosed condition they are currently in.
I do thank you for your concern and your interest to make sure we were aware of this injustice to our history. I also want to thank you for your interest in the B-47.
Jim Diamond
www.b-47.com
Shay
____________
Semper Fortis
Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:17 pm
Hi all--
Oh dear, this subject again...I simply can't grasp why it is that major collections, uh, "de-accession" such items without allowing another outfit the opportunity to preserve them. That said, at the start of this thread it sounds as though the nose of this Stratojet may HAVE been made available, which would reduce the dismay in this case! (Twenty years ago, this nose would doubtless have been headed for Newbury, like the YB-36 hulk and the B-52B nose before it...)
Anyway, I probably saw the B-47 parts in question out on the old Wright Field flightline where NMUSAF's Annex hangars are, a couple years ago. There were a stripped, upside-down B-47 nose and a large section of aft fuselage sitting right side up. (Beside those was an F-86 fuselage with its canopy painted black, pretty plainly an ex-gate guard). Couldn't detect any ID on the B-47 bits (didn't get anywhere near them), could only see a faded SAC sash on the nose section.
Also parked out there was complete B-47E 53-2280, the Stratojet long displayed outside at Dayton, replaced in the new Cold War gallery by the immaculate "thimblenose" RB-47 mentioned previously. At one time 2280 was mooted to be headed to Akron/Canton (MAPS), but that did not occur. The position of the B-47E, just about exactly where the B-52B sat before getting the chop in the mid-eighties, made me nervous at the time...anyone have current info on the status of NMUSAF's B-47E? I fervently hope she isn't on the way out too...
S.
Oh dear, this subject again...I simply can't grasp why it is that major collections, uh, "de-accession" such items without allowing another outfit the opportunity to preserve them. That said, at the start of this thread it sounds as though the nose of this Stratojet may HAVE been made available, which would reduce the dismay in this case! (Twenty years ago, this nose would doubtless have been headed for Newbury, like the YB-36 hulk and the B-52B nose before it...)
Anyway, I probably saw the B-47 parts in question out on the old Wright Field flightline where NMUSAF's Annex hangars are, a couple years ago. There were a stripped, upside-down B-47 nose and a large section of aft fuselage sitting right side up. (Beside those was an F-86 fuselage with its canopy painted black, pretty plainly an ex-gate guard). Couldn't detect any ID on the B-47 bits (didn't get anywhere near them), could only see a faded SAC sash on the nose section.
Also parked out there was complete B-47E 53-2280, the Stratojet long displayed outside at Dayton, replaced in the new Cold War gallery by the immaculate "thimblenose" RB-47 mentioned previously. At one time 2280 was mooted to be headed to Akron/Canton (MAPS), but that did not occur. The position of the B-47E, just about exactly where the B-52B sat before getting the chop in the mid-eighties, made me nervous at the time...anyone have current info on the status of NMUSAF's B-47E? I fervently hope she isn't on the way out too...
S.