B-17G crash site Colombia
Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:43 pm
Information on the newly rediscovered B-17G 44-83439 that crashed in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta mountains, Colombia in 1962. I was at this site three weeks ago and have videos, photos, and information at my web site. http://www.MountainTravelColombia.com
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:16 pm
Pretty country!
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:58 pm
Thank you Wyman and welcome to WIX! Looks like some components may be worth recovering.
Chicago Tribune article on the accident:
Wonder if they ever found out who the mystery passenger was?
Chicago Tribune article on the accident:
Wonder if they ever found out who the mystery passenger was?
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:44 pm
Thank you Chris,
Some information in the Chicago Tribune article is incorrect or fabricated, and it may be that this site was never reached or verified by searchers in 1963. ALL the fuselage and cockpit were badly burned and only small sections of charts and log books survived where other documents were said to have been recovered. The stabilizer, tail section, and BOLTH wings were not burned as stated. The fuselage area where the serial number (32080) would have been located is melted. Only the military numbers were still barley visible under paint on the right hand side of the rear stabilizer. No numbers or N131P were painted on either side of the wings. This aircraft crashed in a very remote and rugged area at an altitude of 3500m, and the time the article stated that the plane was discovered by the Indians, reported to police, searched, serial number recovered, and reported to the Chicago Tribune (6 days) seems very unlikely. A rock tomb with only two sets of remains at the crash site is believed to have been constructed by the Kogui Indians, but the wreckage seems to have never been disturbed! No report of the accident in the ASN database or obituaries of the pilots or other reports of the alleged hijacking that I could find. Many aircraft have crashed in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta range as it is the highest costal mountain range in the world. Most are caused by pilot error flying into IFR conditions, that are usually present in these mountains in December.
Also have video footage at: www.MountainTravelColombia.com
Some information in the Chicago Tribune article is incorrect or fabricated, and it may be that this site was never reached or verified by searchers in 1963. ALL the fuselage and cockpit were badly burned and only small sections of charts and log books survived where other documents were said to have been recovered. The stabilizer, tail section, and BOLTH wings were not burned as stated. The fuselage area where the serial number (32080) would have been located is melted. Only the military numbers were still barley visible under paint on the right hand side of the rear stabilizer. No numbers or N131P were painted on either side of the wings. This aircraft crashed in a very remote and rugged area at an altitude of 3500m, and the time the article stated that the plane was discovered by the Indians, reported to police, searched, serial number recovered, and reported to the Chicago Tribune (6 days) seems very unlikely. A rock tomb with only two sets of remains at the crash site is believed to have been constructed by the Kogui Indians, but the wreckage seems to have never been disturbed! No report of the accident in the ASN database or obituaries of the pilots or other reports of the alleged hijacking that I could find. Many aircraft have crashed in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta range as it is the highest costal mountain range in the world. Most are caused by pilot error flying into IFR conditions, that are usually present in these mountains in December.
Also have video footage at: www.MountainTravelColombia.com
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:32 pm
Wyman Culbreth wrote:Thank you Chris,
The stabilizer, tail section, and BOLTH wings were not burned as stated. The fuselage area where the serial number (32080) would have been located is melted. Only the military numbers were still barley visible under paint on the right hand side of the rear stabilizer. No numbers or N131P were painted on either side of the wings.
Mr. Culbreth,
I am curious about two things. The manufacturer's (Douglas Aircraft) serial number (msn) would have on a dataplate riveted on the bulkhead just aft of the the main fuselage entrance door. Since you report the tail section did not burn, and it appears the main entrance door was quite intact, are you saying that this bulkhead and thus data plate was melted? A bit confused here, as this is the only place the msn appears on the aircraft.
Also, I am curious about where you think the information for the article came from. It seems pretty authoritative with the report of the msn (and not military serial), and why would the reported information be fabricated. Not trying to be argumentative but I've done a bit of research on this aircraft and its mysterious disappearance. The few details directly about the accident that appear incorrect don't seem to change the basic facts of the accident as reported. As for the hijacking theory, I would agree that this was very speculative.
I appreciate you providing so many detailed photos of the wreck site. Sad story, in any event.
By the way, the only photograph I have seen of this airplane in civil service (and included in the second edition of Final Cut, page 40, and the 4th edition, page 237), the airplane has its civil number of N131P painted on the aft fuselage. It appears to be painted overall a light color, perhaps white. It also has an small U.S. flag on the dorsal fin, and a stylized large fish on the middle of the vertical stabilizer about where the military serial would have been painted. From the photos you provided, it would appear all the added paint and markings (presuming there were still on the airplane at the time) have worn away over the half century it has been there. This photo was taken at the Oakland, CA, airport, date unknown but no doubt between October 1959 (when the aircraft was obtained by Paramount Aquariums) and late 1962 (when it was sold shortly before the December 1962 accident).
Again, thank you for posting these photos.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:37 am
Mr. Thompson,
We looked for the (msn) where you indicated, but it appeared that when the airplane impacted flat on a large rock what didn't break off the fuselage burned, including the support spar for the vertical stabilizer with the number 9 on it (483439) photo 78, and panels below and forward of the stabilizer. Many parts, wing sections, tail (photo 53), two engines, glass panels, seats, and door were catapulted 100ft down near a stream.
I am also interested as to how the two people mentioned in the article could have reached the crash site by foot as in 1963 the 4WD roads near this area did not exist. we took three mules that work in this terrain but after reaching 13000ft and days of searching the only route that existed to the site was a difficult foot trail rarely used by the Indians through very rugged terrain.
It is possible that helicopters were used. In 1963 Shell oil had the only three in Colombia (Bell 47Gs) for oil exploration in the Northern part of the country. There is a possible landing site on the South side of the lake but in March winds can be very strong throughout the day.
There are stories from the Kogui Indians as well but not firsthand, that two Indians spotted the wreckage from a trail above on route to another village. after some time it was reported to police, and religious leaders then came up from the village of Don Diego and held ceremonies for 8 days. Lake Uldumindia is one of two of the most important lakes in their lands, and they now consider the wreckage part of the spirit of the lake. They told me that non Indians had never visited the site until recently. There is one of the two Indians still alive in Don Diego and I may be able to get a guide to record what he remembers on video at a festival latter this month as the village is closed to foreigners.
Parts of the wing that were not exposed are painted a crude light blue over white. smaller sections of the fuselage had maybe a red stripe at one time. One engine cowling is dark green (photo 90). some parts landed in a small stream and became corroded. This happened to the port side of the stabilizer, but the starboard side had only numbers no graphics. Surprisingly most parts are not very corroded.
I think the information for the article came from the father who latter became a Chicago judge and died in 1980.
Having had a serial number may have been useful regarding an insurance policy.
It bothered me the most why was this plane flying directly in to the mountains ?
But if they had flown from Panama City loaded to San Juan, Puerto Rico behind the sierra Nevada ( Cartagena, Valledupar) refueled in Maracaibo, then departing San Juan to Panama City the following day empty and not needing to refuel, following a more direct but unfamiliar heading across the Caribbean and along the coast of Colombia to the port city of Santa Marta. Flying at a compass heading directly to Santa Marta with an error of less than 3 degrees East and at a cruising altitude of 12000ft, then encountering a cloud bank in the early afternoon and continuing inland for 32 miles the aircraft may have encountered terrain at 12000ft, banked sharply to the Right, stalled and crashed at a 90 degree angle on the other side of the ridge.
But that's my humble opinion!
you're always welcome to come to Colombia and tour the site with us and see what you think.
Thank you for your interest.
We looked for the (msn) where you indicated, but it appeared that when the airplane impacted flat on a large rock what didn't break off the fuselage burned, including the support spar for the vertical stabilizer with the number 9 on it (483439) photo 78, and panels below and forward of the stabilizer. Many parts, wing sections, tail (photo 53), two engines, glass panels, seats, and door were catapulted 100ft down near a stream.
I am also interested as to how the two people mentioned in the article could have reached the crash site by foot as in 1963 the 4WD roads near this area did not exist. we took three mules that work in this terrain but after reaching 13000ft and days of searching the only route that existed to the site was a difficult foot trail rarely used by the Indians through very rugged terrain.
It is possible that helicopters were used. In 1963 Shell oil had the only three in Colombia (Bell 47Gs) for oil exploration in the Northern part of the country. There is a possible landing site on the South side of the lake but in March winds can be very strong throughout the day.
There are stories from the Kogui Indians as well but not firsthand, that two Indians spotted the wreckage from a trail above on route to another village. after some time it was reported to police, and religious leaders then came up from the village of Don Diego and held ceremonies for 8 days. Lake Uldumindia is one of two of the most important lakes in their lands, and they now consider the wreckage part of the spirit of the lake. They told me that non Indians had never visited the site until recently. There is one of the two Indians still alive in Don Diego and I may be able to get a guide to record what he remembers on video at a festival latter this month as the village is closed to foreigners.
Parts of the wing that were not exposed are painted a crude light blue over white. smaller sections of the fuselage had maybe a red stripe at one time. One engine cowling is dark green (photo 90). some parts landed in a small stream and became corroded. This happened to the port side of the stabilizer, but the starboard side had only numbers no graphics. Surprisingly most parts are not very corroded.
I think the information for the article came from the father who latter became a Chicago judge and died in 1980.
Having had a serial number may have been useful regarding an insurance policy.
It bothered me the most why was this plane flying directly in to the mountains ?
But if they had flown from Panama City loaded to San Juan, Puerto Rico behind the sierra Nevada ( Cartagena, Valledupar) refueled in Maracaibo, then departing San Juan to Panama City the following day empty and not needing to refuel, following a more direct but unfamiliar heading across the Caribbean and along the coast of Colombia to the port city of Santa Marta. Flying at a compass heading directly to Santa Marta with an error of less than 3 degrees East and at a cruising altitude of 12000ft, then encountering a cloud bank in the early afternoon and continuing inland for 32 miles the aircraft may have encountered terrain at 12000ft, banked sharply to the Right, stalled and crashed at a 90 degree angle on the other side of the ridge.
But that's my humble opinion!
you're always welcome to come to Colombia and tour the site with us and see what you think.
Thank you for your interest.
Last edited by Wyman Culbreth on Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:04 am
Mr. Culbreth,
Thanks for the followup....all excellent information. With your permission, I would like to work what you have written here into a section of my next B-17 update at http://www.aerovintage.com , which I should be doing in the next two weeks.
Two further items of interest I dug out this morning: the airplane was carried by the civil registry only identified by its military serial number (44-83439) and not its manufacturer's serial, a common practice.
Also, in looking through my paper copy of the civil registration file, there is a document dated March 26, 1963, from the "Amconsulate, Barranquilla" (presumably the American Consulate) to the Department of State (U.S., presumably) that reportedly accompanied "the two enclosed identification plates and the photostatic copy of an application for registration for aircraft bearing Registration No. N131P" as received from Captain Huga Barvo, District Representative of the Colombian Civil Air Authority. The copy of the application is in the file, and it is in very poor condition and appears to be burnt at the edges.
I would suggest that these items indicate the site was visited in 1963 and these items recovered from the wreckage. This data plate may be the source of the msn in the newspaper account, as I don't know where else it would have come from. There are other items in the paper registry file of some interest that relate to the post-accident activity, but this document stands out.
This photo would bear out the remarks you made about the remaining paint (dark cowlings, red cheat line on fuselage):
I can't say a trip to Colombia is in the offing for me any time soon. But, if you are looking for another project, perhaps you can locate the remains of the old Paul Mantz B-25H (N1203) that, rumor has, disappeared in Colombia in the early 1970s. It was reportedly being used for drug smuggling. Another interesting story, no doubt.
Thanks for the followup....all excellent information. With your permission, I would like to work what you have written here into a section of my next B-17 update at http://www.aerovintage.com , which I should be doing in the next two weeks.
Two further items of interest I dug out this morning: the airplane was carried by the civil registry only identified by its military serial number (44-83439) and not its manufacturer's serial, a common practice.
Also, in looking through my paper copy of the civil registration file, there is a document dated March 26, 1963, from the "Amconsulate, Barranquilla" (presumably the American Consulate) to the Department of State (U.S., presumably) that reportedly accompanied "the two enclosed identification plates and the photostatic copy of an application for registration for aircraft bearing Registration No. N131P" as received from Captain Huga Barvo, District Representative of the Colombian Civil Air Authority. The copy of the application is in the file, and it is in very poor condition and appears to be burnt at the edges.
I would suggest that these items indicate the site was visited in 1963 and these items recovered from the wreckage. This data plate may be the source of the msn in the newspaper account, as I don't know where else it would have come from. There are other items in the paper registry file of some interest that relate to the post-accident activity, but this document stands out.
This photo would bear out the remarks you made about the remaining paint (dark cowlings, red cheat line on fuselage):
I can't say a trip to Colombia is in the offing for me any time soon. But, if you are looking for another project, perhaps you can locate the remains of the old Paul Mantz B-25H (N1203) that, rumor has, disappeared in Colombia in the early 1970s. It was reportedly being used for drug smuggling. Another interesting story, no doubt.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:28 pm
Mr. Thompson,
You are welcome to use any information for your book, and if you need any photos please let me know.
Yes it seems that one of the data plates would be the msn, and that the site had been searched in 1963.
I didn't see any other parts with missing data plates either.
Did you see any reference in this file as to how many bodies were located, or if the pilot's remains were retrieved?
Thank you for posting the photo. It's very interesting.
You are welcome to use any information for your book, and if you need any photos please let me know.
Yes it seems that one of the data plates would be the msn, and that the site had been searched in 1963.
I didn't see any other parts with missing data plates either.
Did you see any reference in this file as to how many bodies were located, or if the pilot's remains were retrieved?
Thank you for posting the photo. It's very interesting.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:40 pm
Take this for what it's worth as it's just a Google search on that s/n in the newspaper article (32080).
This is from the 447th BG website. There is a pic out there of the 42-32081 listed as the 42-32080. Both airframes are listed on the 447th inventory at the link below.
http://www.447bg.com/Aircraft%20Page%202.htm
This is from the 447th BG website. There is a pic out there of the 42-32081 listed as the 42-32080. Both airframes are listed on the 447th inventory at the link below.
http://www.447bg.com/Aircraft%20Page%202.htm
B-17G-10-BO 42 32080 STINKY, VIRGINIA HELEN, VIRGINS FROM HELL, TOO TIRED 708 H 1/21/1944 03/17/44 708SQ; caught fire on training flight 5/2/45; sal 05/02/45
SAL
B-17G-10-BO 42 32081 YELLOW CAB 708 1/23/1944 03/04/44 708SQ; FTR Hamburg 11/4/44 w/Adams; flak, cr Channel; 9KIA 11/04/44
MACR 10162
Prelim MACR
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Constructed as a B-17G-80-DL by Douglas at Long Beach, California, USA.
Douglas B-17G-80-DL 32080
Taken on Strength/Charge with the United States Army Air Force with s/n 44-83439.
To unknown owner with c/r N6180C.
To unknown owner with c/r N131P.
To Air Carrier Leasing Corp, Miami, FL with c/r N131P (B-17G, 44-83439).
On 20 August 1963
Civil registration, N131P, cancelled.
Cancelled.
Written off.
Constructed as a B-17G-80-DL by Douglas at Long Beach, California, USA.
Douglas B-17G-80-DL 32080
Taken on Strength/Charge with the United States Army Air Force with s/n 44-83439.
To unknown owner with c/r N6180C.
To unknown owner with c/r N131P.
To Air Carrier Leasing Corp, Miami, FL with c/r N131P (B-17G, 44-83439).
On 20 August 1963
Civil registration, N131P, cancelled.
Cancelled.
Written off.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:14 pm
Photos show a number 48343 across the Vertical.
Not the S/N listed for the A/C that crashed.
Came across this-
KJ110 (BU-B) VEGA B-17G-60-VE FLYING FORTRESS (BOEING) III C/n 7743 44-8343
From -
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1656
7743 B-17G-60-VE xxx 44-8343 KJ110
From-
http://www.abcdlist.nl/lv.html
44-8343 / KJ 110 / 214Sq [BU-] / 223Sq [6G-P] / Retiré du service le 11-03-1947
From
http://b-17-flying-fortress.actifforum. ... r-en-cours
Not the S/N listed for the A/C that crashed.
Came across this-
KJ110 (BU-B) VEGA B-17G-60-VE FLYING FORTRESS (BOEING) III C/n 7743 44-8343
From -
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=1656
7743 B-17G-60-VE xxx 44-8343 KJ110
From-
http://www.abcdlist.nl/lv.html
44-8343 / KJ 110 / 214Sq [BU-] / 223Sq [6G-P] / Retiré du service le 11-03-1947
From
http://b-17-flying-fortress.actifforum. ... r-en-cours
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:29 pm
Thanks for posting that image, Scott - it matches up with the uniquely modified tail turret that appears in image #53 of the Colombian photos. Note the patch of light blue paint on the bottom.
(Hope both of you don't mind me borrowing part of each for comparison.)
(Hope both of you don't mind me borrowing part of each for comparison.)
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:41 pm
51fixer wrote:Photos show a number 48343 across the Vertical.
Not the S/N listed for the A/C that crashed.
The vertical stabilizer broke off at the separation line; "9" would be on the remainder of the fin. Look at the other side of the tail in the old image and you can see the separation line falls between the first and second digits "4" and "8".
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:00 pm
Chris,
That's correct. I looked for the skin that separated with the 9 on it (photo 62) , but couldn't find it. The other side was in a small stream and corroded (photo 61).
Thank you for comparing the photos of the tail section. At first I thought this was the nose as it was down in a ravine in a stream and corroded.
That's correct. I looked for the skin that separated with the 9 on it (photo 62) , but couldn't find it. The other side was in a small stream and corroded (photo 61).
Thank you for comparing the photos of the tail section. At first I thought this was the nose as it was down in a ravine in a stream and corroded.
Re: B-17G crash site Colombia
Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:42 pm
Scott and Wyman,
While we're at it there's another Colombian B-17 that dropped out of sight in the mid-'60s: B-17F s/n 42-3470 registered HK-580, last operated by Aeropesca (a fish hauler?) out of Bogotá beginning in 1962. Might be worth looking into?
While we're at it there's another Colombian B-17 that dropped out of sight in the mid-'60s: B-17F s/n 42-3470 registered HK-580, last operated by Aeropesca (a fish hauler?) out of Bogotá beginning in 1962. Might be worth looking into?