Which would be rarer?

[Nathan]

My personal thanks to those who risk condemnation to voice their support for my views. I'd rather be right than popular.

Let's all clap our hands and bow to you then. You insulted me and others for liking and honoring the history of the Buffalo. Then when you couldn't win with made up facts then you had to down play Midway and the rest of the Pacific. A true historian would appreciate all aspects of the subjects. Not just the winners, or whatever you think is better. Im not upset. Your a troll and you can have a nice day. Bye!

[Tomahawk]

For the record, I consider the defeat of the Japanese to have been every bit as important as the defeat of the Germans. Obviously, those in charge at the time saw it as secondary. As posted elsewhere, I consider Swede Vejtasa to be one of our greatest pilots, by virtue of his ability to use the strengths of his SBD to defeat a number of supposedly superior enemy a/c in one action, clearly demonstrating it was no accident. I have more than a passing familiarity with the war in the Pacific.

My favorite a/c of all time are P-38's, P-40's, and F4U's. All controversal in their time, all fought in the Pacific, and all winners in the end.

[Tomahawk]

I never claimed to be a historian. I am familiar with the record of the Brewster Aeronautical Corp. and its owner, James Work. It smacks of criminal enterprise. Certainly nothing to applaud. Apparently, the Dept. of the Navy agreed. History is the about people, not objects. This was a bad company, run by bad people. Make sure you include that in your tributes.

Any pilot who had to fly one of their a/c in a combat zone should get an Air Medal. My issue is with the company, not the men who flew the F2A. I am firmly against giving the Brewster Aero. Corp. any credit for anything.

[WIXMOD-DELTA]

Guys, we, the mods, have received numerous reports for this topic. It seems a few people are getting annoyed at a few others. I sat here and tried to read this from start to the most current post and while it's been a "colorfull" discussion, and border line name calling"(trolls) I don't really think anyone is personally attacking anyone with ill intent. Let's all remember opinions are like a---'s everyone has one AND everyone is entitled to one. It is hard sometimes to interpret ones internet expression thru the keyboard and not to come across as erorgant and condescending.
With that being said simply try to understand someone may not agree with your opinion or philosophy but that doesn't mean you can't debate the topic. Just try to be respectful even if you disagree.
Continue on and try to play nice and remember what mama always said,,...
If you can't say nutt'n nice, don't say nutt'n at all.

Alfred

[shrike]

I'm going to return to the original topic (silly me) and point out that there is a fundamental flaw in the way people are approaching the question.

Everyone not arguing about the business practices of Brewster is confusing 'rarity' with 'scarcity'

Scarcity is quantifiable, having to do with the actual number or amount of a commodity. Only one built, or only one left, the answer is still 'one'

Rarity is a societal construct that adds tangible value to the intangible desirability of an object. The higher the perceived demand, the greater the rarity (and price)

Case in point: I own a LHD 2dr 1968 Ford Cortina GT. By best estimates, there were at most 1300 of those built that year. Perhaps, at most 5% of them survive. It is "scarce"
Conversely, the lowest production for any given year of Corvette Stingray Convertible is 40,000+ units. 30 times as many. Because of its (mostly) intangible desirability, it is "rare"

Crystalline carbon is not particularly scarce. In fact, gem diamonds are not particularly scarce, but thanks to heavy advertising, and monopolistic control of supply, they are 'rare'

I now return you to your regularly scheduled bun-fight

[JohnB]

Yes, there had to be a moment when the breaks first went against Japan and it became obvious that America's hugely larger military and economic strength was going to pound it into the ground, and Midway happened to be it. If it weren't Midway, it would have been some other engagement, August

To State the obvious...
But it WAS Midway.
Therefore it's important.

But Midway was the battle where the IJN lost its carriers and many seasoned pilots, as well as the power to maintain the initiative it had.

Yes, eventually the Allies (in the pacific, and the march to the Japanese home islands, that means the U.S.) would have won.
But we can say the same about any battle of the war, if Germany had won the battle of Britain, and invaded the UK, the U.S. would still have won the war.
True, it might have been in 1955 (after massed B-36 raids escorted by P-80s vs. many Luftwaffe jets ), but we would have won.
That doesn't diminish the importance of the BoB or the weakening effect Stalin's armies had on Hitler's forces.


Your argument works fine if we're talking about who invented whatever...if it wasn't Edison, it would have been John X. Smith. Fair enough.
But your argument could also apply to any war...but it doesn't take into account the occasional great man.
What would have happened if Lincoln was a weak, indecisive, unengaged president? You can't assume that his democratic opponent (in 1864 McClellan) would have been just as good.

[JohnB]

tough crowd here via about Midway and the Pacific war. I can't believe anyone on wix would consider the Pacific war a foot note, a side show, and non important basically.

Ask the UK-centric crowd on the other forum.
Their opinion seems to be if it wasn't fought with Spitfires, it was a sideshow managed by the glory-hogging "Yanks".

[JohnB]

I never claimed to be a historian. I am familiar with the record of the Brewster Aeronautical Corp. and its owner, James Work. It smacks of criminal enterprise.

Yes, but was the Buffalo any worse than any number of contemporary aircraft?
Planes of the late 30s were at a disadvantage...technology was changing daily, and no one had much war experience.

The UK was lucky it had a world class fighter in the Spitfire. The Japanese had one n the A6M, and the Germans had the Bf 109. The US, France, Russia...well, not so much. But the Buffalo was no worse than most other planes of the period built by most of the soon-to-be combatants.

[Tomahawk]

The war in Europe had already been in progress for over 2 1/2 years before the Battle of Midway. And the war in the Pacific, twice as long.
We were capable of producing such aircraft, but our flawed procurement system prevented it. Brewster is symbolic of that disconnect.

The British had Nazis for neighbors, and that was good motivation for them.
The Germans, for any number of reasons, were very motivated to produce a quality product. The results speak for themselves.
The Japanese bought our radial engine technology, and more or less copied the Hughes R-1, which our government didn't want.

Bribery and corruption continue to saddle our military with underperforming equipment. I, for one, won't let it go unnoticed. And I won't stand idly by while you try to re-write history. The Navy seized the Brewster factory in April of 1942 (before Midway), and sued the owner for $10M (an enormous sum at the time). Brewster Aero. Corp. was symbolic of everything that continues to be wrong with our nation. Exploiting and defrauding our government for personal gain, and being directly responsible for the deaths of servicemen, should carry a heavy penalty. Death doen't seem harsh enough.

If the Buffalo was simply a bad airplane, it wouldn't be as troubling. It was a bad airplane because the owner of the company spent OUR TAX DOLLARS on bribing politicians and entertaining clients, instead of making it a better airplane. Good men died flying these, while the owner lived high on the hog. After the war, people were aware of all this, but in their haste to move on, they stopped talking about it. The Buffalo was rightly forgotten along with it. In an era of war profiteers, this company stood out, and not in a good way. Now, apparently, most have forgotten what this airplane represents. Make sure you post reprints of articles from the NY Times about this company's misdeeds next to the a/c in the display.

[sandiego89]

Perhaps you are missing the context that generates some appeal for the Buffalo. I offer the following for consideration:
- It is rare, and that has an attraction. I love to see rare/sole survivors, even if they are "losers" in your words. The arado 234, serian, and dornier 355 (and others) are all at udvar hazy, none changed the war, but I am glad the exist. People want to see a buffalo, and there is nothing wrong with that. I have seen plenty of mustangs, but I have never seen a buffalo.
- right or wrong the buffalo is part of the mystique of the early dark days of the pacific. Outnumbered and against the zero in outdated underperforming aircraft like the buffalo. Places like wake and midway us forces fought with what they had. This conjures up fighting spirit, courage, etc. the context is important.
- no one here is trying to the buffalo is on a pedestal like a mustang, 109, zero or spitfire. It served. It is part of fighting history. I get you don't like it. Most others could care less about the politics of the manufacturer, maybe that even adds to the interest of an artifact.

[marine air]

IT seems like there were different levels of manufacturers, and many were not "top shelf." TO me the "not top shelf" american manufacturers were Martin, Brewster, Curtiss, Ryan, Bell, and others. Three obvious top shelf companies were Boeing, Douglas, and North American. The lower shelf suppliers concentrated their efforts on getting huge contracts and getting rich quickly.. The top shelf suppliers are like a Superbowl championship team that sought excellence at every level; the design, performance, sales, support, etc. Most of them were in business long after the end of WW II.

[Tomahawk]

Marine Air - Of the companies you named, only ONE, Brewster, is not in business today. All of the others, through mergers and acquisitions, are still with us. Brewster closed its doors before the war ended.

Sandiego89 - there were no F2A's on Wake, only F4F's. I have no issue with rare and unusual a/c, if they exist and can be restored. There are, however, people like me who don't want to see the real history lesson of Brewster swept under the rug.

Shrike - FYI: Total Corvette production (coupe and roadster) never exceeded 40,000 units until 1976. I don't think they ever built 40,000 roadsters in any given model year. Good on ya for saving that Cortina GT though. Left hook, no less!

Last edited by Tomahawk on Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

[sandiego89]

Sandiego89 - there were no F2A's on Wake.

Yes I am aware of that, you rolled my sentences together, or I could have been clearer. There were a variety of outnumbered, outclassed, and/ or obsolete US aircraft at places like Pearl Harbor, wake, midway, quadalcanal, the Alutians etc. the buffalo is part of the legacy of "dancing with the girl you brought",

[Tomahawk]

Sandiego89 - Roger that. Dancing with her is one thing, dying is another!

[old iron]

Sandiego89 - Roger that. Dancing with her is one thing, dying is another!

I am off this list!