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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:37 am 
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There is a news snippet in Aeroplane Monthly that says 'Allison Competition Engines had its powerplant licence suspended by the FAA on January 13'

Does anyone know anything else about this?

I have googled the life out this and been to google news and FAA website without any luck....


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:29 am 
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retracted

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Last edited by Chuck Gardner on Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:48 pm 
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Yes, If we don't speak about it, it will go away.

C'mon people!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:33 pm 
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Interesting that this wasn't discussed at NWOC...even given that there was a forum specifically for engine discussion.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:41 pm 
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This might clarify things:

Warbirds in the 21st Century

Warbirds are evolving, just like any of nature’s creatures that have survived to modern times. Up until very recently Warbird owners and restorers have felt they can freely rebuild, repair, and improve their valuable airplanes as they see fit, providing they determine the aircraft, its engines, and accessories are safe for flight. While there are a number of existing FAA rules and regulations that establish minimum standards and requirements for maintenance, modification, and operation, in many instances practice has been to allow self-regulation by owners/operators, overseen and/or inspected by FAA inspectors. Many of these inspectors had grown up with high performance recip powered airplanes, and understood these airplanes and the people, and knew what aspects were critical. A fair amount of latitude regarding rigorous compliance with the FAA rules and regulations resulted, yet in general, the aircraft have performed safely and reliably. The generation of aviation people that grew-up with high performance recip airplanes is now retiring, and the “rules”, at least their application, is changing.
A recent example of this occurred in January 2006 when Bud Wheeler of Allison Competition Engines, Latrobe, PA, had his Powerplant Mechanics Certificate suspended for 90-days. There has been a lot of miss information about this case and it needs to be set straight. Here is what happened.
In 1998 Mr. Wheeler was asked to overhaul two Allison V-1710s from a P-38. These engines had been modified in 1981 by having their original 8.1:1 supercharger gears replaced by 9.6:1 gears. The owner of the airplane asked to retain these gears and to also install pistons modified to have three modern rings in place of the original Allison five-ring arrangement. When the overhaul was complete the statement “overhauled in accordance with the Allison manuals” was placed in the logbook. In 2005 a new owner of the airplane decided to open the engines during a general restoration of the aircraft and found the non-standard parts. He reported this to the FAA, who then raised the issue to a safety of flight level and sought to revoke Mr. Wheeler’s Powerplant certificate. This action resulted in the recent NTSB trial and the judge’s finding that, “…Wheeler does not lack the qualifications to be the holder of a mechanic certificate with power plant rating.”
The basis for the 90-day suspension of certificate were Parts 43.13(a) and (b), and 43.3(a). These all are relative to having installed parts in engines from a “Limited” certificated airplane that are not identified in the original manufacturers manuals, without having obtained approval for the changes from the FAA. In the November 2005 through February 2006 period the engineering basis supporting these changes was submitted to the FAA and approvals for the following changes have been issued to Allison Competition Engines.
• 3-Ring Pistons in both standard and chrome liner engines
• Cadmium Plating of engine hardware
• Renewal of crankshaft bearing plating
• Installation of improved Distributor Shaft seals
• Installation of late model valve springs
• Installation of modern gaskets and seals
• Coolant Pump Seal Modernization
Two more changes are in the submittal process, for approval to use modern anti-friction bearings and modern spark plugs.
The classic Warbird industry argument is that the Allison engine is not a “Type Certificated” engine; therefore, practically anything the owner wants can be done to it. Not so says the FAA. “Limited” category airplanes like many of the P-38s are “certificated”, and by association, so are the engines, the accessories, and everything else about the airplane. This places all work done on the airplane under Part 43 of the regulations. It doesn’t say that modifications and changes cannot be done, but it does require that a sound engineering basis for changes be established, and that the FAA approve them. Secondarily, many Warbirds are operated in the “Experimental” category, were Part 43 does not directly apply. The caution here is that specific airplanes have “restrictions” written into their licenses, which may have the effect of requiring Part 43 compliance. In recent discussions with the FAA it appears that this is the direction they are going in the 21st century, and that the Warbird industry can anticipate greater scrutiny and configuration oversight than has generally been enforced during the past 60 years.
Allison Competition Engines, under the direction of Bud Wheeler, has a reputation for supplying the best V-1710s in the world. That he has been singled out for this level of scrutiny shows that the FAA is getting serious about compliance with the finer points in their regulations. It clearly sends the message to the Warbird industry that it is not enough to build the best airplanes possible: the paperwork has to be to a similar standard.

March 3, 2006

Bud Wheeler, President
Allison Competition Engines
PO Box 995
4686 Route 982
Latrobe, PA 15650
724-539-0241


Last edited by DaveM2 on Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:43 pm 
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And a follow up from an industry warbird enthusiast :

"It is worth considering, before making any judgements about Allison
aircraft engines, who you would ask for sound advice on the subject.
How about 'the guy who wrote the book on Allisons' (Dan Whitney,
author of the definitive 'Vees for Victory - the story of the Allison
aircraft engine 1929-1948'). Ask Dan which, if any, Allison builder
he would endorse (and Dan does not go around endorsing products of
any nature), the only name that comes up is Bud Wheeler, Allison
Competition Engines.

When you ask the FAA which, if any, engine builder has sought AND
received approval for modifications designed to improve operation and
life of Allison engines, they will answer.....Bud Wheeler, Allison
Competition Engines (11 approved modifications so far!).

If you wish to extend the TBO of your V-1710, ask around the
operators and you'll find that the only way to bring the TBO up from
the standard recommended 600 hours is to have the aircraft rebuilt
using the chrome-liner modifications with associated new pistons and
rings. And who made this mod available (and had it approved) after it
had been exhaustively developed and tested...? Yes, Bud Wheeler of
Allison Competition Engines.

What seems to bear the hallmarks of an old-fashioned witch-hunt
initiated by others in the industry is starting to crystallize
instead into an endorsement of Bud Wheeler/Allison Competition
Engines' accomplishments. This quiet achiever has done the warbird
industry a huge service which will benefit operators of P-38s, P-39s,
P-40s, P-63s, early Mustangs, Yaks and even Focke Wulf Fw190D's for
decades into the future. It seems that the warbird industry in turn
needs to be a little more appreciative of this remarkable and
dedicated effort".


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:18 pm 
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Here! Here!!

FAA starting to sound like the UK's over zealous CAA.......

Like here you can't substitute a cigar lighter socket in your certificated aeroplane with a modern reliable state of the art 2 pole vibration resistant compact socket, because its not certificated... So in the UK you plug your hand held GPS etc into a standard automobile cigar lighter socket which is a total B-O-L-LOCKS electrical interface design for anything other than a cigar lighter.......Progress...... ???


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:10 pm 
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Well.............

Everyone is going to have to get used to this. The time when you buy NOS for your Merlin/Alison/Griffon etc and have it restored to stock is fast dissapearing. Despite the mountains of surplus that were left after WW11 we are fast running out of these engines and components.

If I want a merlin restored for a museum aircraft then it doesn't matter about reliability or integrity as long as it is original etc If you are flying an Aircraft on the other hand you are very interested in Safety, Reliability and TCO (Total cost of ownership).

In the 70 plus years since these engines technology didn't stand still. We are particularly lucky that the motorsport industry has thrived on the development of good old inefficent internal combustion engines. Formula One alone spends Billions (I am serious Billions) on the development of ultra high performance Piston engines and the technology is staggering - the same goes for the US where the plethora of Motor racing Formula have certainly advanced the cause of technology evolution in piston engines. Friction is the enemy of any reciprocating engine and the advances made in reducing this alone are nothing short of amazing. all of this means that there is a natural technology "leakage" or transfer to the Aviation industry.

There is nothing in any of the work done by Allison Competion Engines or Jack Rousch(Spelling?) or any of a number of firms that is cutting edge - these are proven and reliable methods of improving an aging design to make it more efficent and safer. As time goes by more and more compontents will have to be manufactured for Warbird engines to a point where one day I could forsee a complete engine being manufactured from one end to the other - they will be better engines and better materials and as a result we will all be better off.

Scrutiny is one thing but slavish adhearance to traditional technology is another all together - Well done to the safe and intelligent innovators I say.

Regards
John P

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 Post subject: What We Found
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:57 pm 
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If you alter the Allison five ring arangement ie, the botom oil ring,you get the opertunity to throw the banks pistons and gudgons in the bin at 200 hrs.So when the new banks and pistons were fitted with the lower ring there was a 20% increase in power.
Strange thing that Allison had it right from the start.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:05 pm 
A lot of what I am seeing here is Bud’s Wheeler response to the charges against him. This still smacks of Bud being Bud and doing whatever Bud thinks is best .What he thinks is best as it turned out was against the law and he has and will answer for it. I doubt it that Bud was just a victim. I suspect he did far more than he was caught doing but they could only convict him on a few points. What I need is the NTSB hearing minutes to make a more informed decision.

This incident brings up some valid points. Should these aircraft be certified under “limited”, “experimental” or “standard category” Do the owners know best when it comes to modifying their aircraft. Should anyone under any category aircraft be allowed to modify their aircraft just because they can? No, I say. These warbirds must be protected at all cost and no cost should be spared. Now I do not know all that Bud did What I did read was Mr.Wheeler did these mod’s in1998 and sought permission in 2005.Why did he wait so long to get engineering support? Now this is just me reading between the lines. I suspect he was caught and tried to cover his tracks and I bet he never had any mod’s approved by anyone prior to this incident. If I am right then Mr. Wheeler cannot be trusted and should be expunged from the warbird community. I want and need to know more.

As small as this community is we should protect these aircraft like they where our own children and eliminate any threat to their existence. If Mr.Wheeler did some modification to any engine at any time that jeopardized these aircraft .Then we have a duty to follow this thru, learn the fact and if guilty never do business with him again and not allow him to jeopardize another aircraft.

Sorry if it sounds like I am standing on a “soapbox” I just get fired up when I see someone thinking they are above the rules the rest of us must obey.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:42 pm 
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Well, all I can say is that it appears that he got caught. If the engine in question were an IO-550, there is no excuse for making substitutions. All the parts are available from the factory. There are plenty of engines out there (certified for aircraft in the Standard category- NOT just Limited or Experimental) that are totally unsupportable without newly built spare parts. Many overhaulers (all?) do not have a PMA for every one of these new parts. It just isn't commercially viable to certify them. This can be a very gray area in the regulations and interpretation is at the agency's whim. Enforcement can also be spotty at best.

The above punishment (if it fits the "crime") sure seems to me like a slap on the hand for a minor infraction, not serious punishment for threats to life and limb.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:17 am 
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I was warned that there was some problems with this discussion and so I sequestered it till I could review it. Unfortunately It took longer than anticipated to review it. However, after review I will allow this back in general population. Just a reminder though, views expressed in this forum are the responsibility of the poster and not the management. With that said I would ask that accusations against Mr. Wheeler that are speculative be curtailed without proof as this treads on the no personal attacks rule.

Paul: Sorry about not informing you why the post disappeared :)

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 5:48 pm 
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RJMech wrote:
I bet he never had any mod’s approved by anyone prior to this incident. If I am right then Mr. Wheeler cannot be trusted and should be expunged from the warbird community. I want and need to know more.

Sorry if it sounds like I am standing on a “soapbox” I just get fired up when I see someone thinking they are above the rules the rest of us must obey.


Unfortunately your rather clearly stated pure speculation at this stage appears in print as rather defamatory to say the least. There is a time and place for getting fired up and I fear, with respect to this subject, on an online forum whilst not being in possesion of the fair facts is not one. IMHO :-)

Interesting thread though.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:33 pm 
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As an individual working on engines in this warbird community I can say this-- All the folks who post here are certainly entitled to their opinions as we all are. However, there are alot of issues involved that "most" of you do not know about and therefore are purely speculating. This forum, or "Any" public forum is not the place to drag someones dirty laundry through the grinder. One needs to be thoughtful of what they say or all of us can suffer for it. Owners have their chosen engine builders and they generally stay with them unless something major happens in the relationship to alter that. Bud Wheeler is no differant that any of the rest of us in the fact he has both his supporters and detractors. Unfortunately recent event's surrounding him bring out both sides in a highly visable situation. Once again, this isn't the place to be bashing or speculating anyone.

Sparrow


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