Trimotor in Pearl Harbor Attack? Give me a break!
Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:44 am
eBay Item 4620590104
"The all-metal Ford was on the ground in Pearl Harbor during the Japanese invasion of December 7th, 1941, and is one of very few aircraft that survived that attack, with four bullet holes in its aft fuselage."
Give me strength...I am laughing so hard...
Let us see some proof!
Cheers,
David Aiken
"The all-metal Ford was on the ground in Pearl Harbor during the Japanese invasion of December 7th, 1941, and is one of very few aircraft that survived that attack, with four bullet holes in its aft fuselage."
Give me strength...I am laughing so hard...
Let us see some proof!
Cheers,
David Aiken
Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:54 am
Not only do I have my doubts, I didn't know the Japanese "invaded" Pearl Harbor.
Mudge the dubious
Mudge the dubious
Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:11 am
Mudge wrote:Not only do I have my doubts, I didn't know the Japanese "invaded" Pearl Harbor.
Mudge the dubious
Thats cause it was the Germans....(Animal House)
Bluto:What?! Over? Did you say over? NOTHING is over until WE decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? HELL, NO!
Otter: Germans?
Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.
Sorry dragging off topic
Tony
Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:21 am
Okay Guys,
Here is some "proof":
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200112/ai_n9016205
"There is, however, another survivor of that day. Ford Trimotor 4-AT-E, serial number 55, registration number NC9612 is still with us. This aircraft belonged to K-T Flying Service (Charles Knox and Robert Tyce) of Honolulu, and it was parked at Wheeler Field at the time of the attack. There was some damage to the Trimotor during the strafing attack on the field. Dolph Overton (founder and former owner of the Wings & Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida) now owns this aircraft. It is in the process of being restored by Woods Aviation in North Carolina.
"Here are two recent pictures of the restoration process. One was taken when the wing center section and landing gear were attached. The other shows a piece of skin that had to be replaced. A close examination of the skin reveals three patched bullet holes that were sustained during the December 7, 1941, attack.
"Will Auen"
Here is the photo of "Three patched bullet holes": http://www.ipass.net/~ginkgo/strafing.jpg
Aloha All,
The smoking gun shows "three repair patches". I am still laughing...gee, the patches sure show how neat and straight bullets 'stitch' metal...
Cheers,
David Aiken
Here is some "proof":
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3897/is_200112/ai_n9016205
"There is, however, another survivor of that day. Ford Trimotor 4-AT-E, serial number 55, registration number NC9612 is still with us. This aircraft belonged to K-T Flying Service (Charles Knox and Robert Tyce) of Honolulu, and it was parked at Wheeler Field at the time of the attack. There was some damage to the Trimotor during the strafing attack on the field. Dolph Overton (founder and former owner of the Wings & Wheels Museum in Orlando, Florida) now owns this aircraft. It is in the process of being restored by Woods Aviation in North Carolina.
"Here are two recent pictures of the restoration process. One was taken when the wing center section and landing gear were attached. The other shows a piece of skin that had to be replaced. A close examination of the skin reveals three patched bullet holes that were sustained during the December 7, 1941, attack.
"Will Auen"
Here is the photo of "Three patched bullet holes": http://www.ipass.net/~ginkgo/strafing.jpg
Aloha All,
The smoking gun shows "three repair patches". I am still laughing...gee, the patches sure show how neat and straight bullets 'stitch' metal...
Cheers,
David Aiken
Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:29 pm
Hey Guys- I think this one falls into the category of Inncoent until proven guilty. While I too am on the fence on this one I do think it is possible. Lets keep in mind that in addtion to the obvious aircraft we always think about when dealing with Pearl Harbor such as P40 and PBY's I do not think it beyone the realm of possibility that there were a few hack aircraft as well as transport types on the field.
I have known Will Auen for several years and can say that he is not the type to deceive on something like this nor is he likely to be making it up. I admit that over the years stories get embellished and pherhaps that is part of what is happening here, but if you are going to start crying FOUL we should have some proof. Just because you have not heard about something yourself does not mean it didn't happen.
Steve S
I have known Will Auen for several years and can say that he is not the type to deceive on something like this nor is he likely to be making it up. I admit that over the years stories get embellished and pherhaps that is part of what is happening here, but if you are going to start crying FOUL we should have some proof. Just because you have not heard about something yourself does not mean it didn't happen.
Steve S
Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:38 pm
Yes, Steve,
You are MOST CORRECT. There may BE a connection between K-T Flying Service, Ford Tri-Motor, and "Pearl Harbor". YET, we must hold all suggestions of a "Pearl Harbor" connection to a HIGHER status of confirmation...as such connections have a higher feeling in our National Conscious.
We must confirm that such an aircraft truly IS what is claimed MUCH MORE than three repair "patches" equally measured...as proof.
Thank you for keeping our levity to moderation...as there is always a fact within rumor...thus "Loose Lips Sink Ships".
Mahalo and Cheers,
David Aiken
You are MOST CORRECT. There may BE a connection between K-T Flying Service, Ford Tri-Motor, and "Pearl Harbor". YET, we must hold all suggestions of a "Pearl Harbor" connection to a HIGHER status of confirmation...as such connections have a higher feeling in our National Conscious.
We must confirm that such an aircraft truly IS what is claimed MUCH MORE than three repair "patches" equally measured...as proof.
Thank you for keeping our levity to moderation...as there is always a fact within rumor...thus "Loose Lips Sink Ships".
Mahalo and Cheers,
David Aiken
Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:38 pm
OK...I'll accept his word that it was there. I used the term "dubious" which meant I could be persuaded. You CANNOT, however, persuade me that the Japanese "invaded" Pearl Harbor. Sorry...my father was there and he would have told me. 
Mudge the persuadable
(Is PERSUADABLE a word?)
Mudge the persuadable
(Is PERSUADABLE a word?)
oops
Mon Mar 13, 2006 8:54 pm
Maybe Ben Affleck strafed it by mistake.....
Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:56 pm
Why replace the piece of skin that has the patched bullet holes? Doesn't look like it is essential to aircraft safety and would make a great talking point at the local fly in!
Dave
Dave
Last edited by DaveM2 on Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:01 pm
I agree with Mudge..I've been watching this string for a bit and history records that the Japanese "Attacked" Pearl Harbor but I don't think they "Invaded" Pearl Harbor.
Tom
Tom
Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:25 pm
It is not the Japanese that "Invaded " Pearl - they were already there in any case - rather it was - off the top of my head - Hollywood 16 times that I can easilly think of and probably a lot more. It can also be argued that they have in the long run done more damage than the ATTACK (not invasion) by the Japanese.
Regards
John P
Regards
John P
Tri-Motor: Possible confirmation?
Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:29 am
The book Day of Infamy by Walter Lord describes the strafing attack on John Rogers Field in Honolulu and mentions that "pilot Bob Tice" (note spelling) was killed. No mention of the Tri-Motor, though; just the Inter-Island Airlines plane (a DC-3).
Thu Mar 16, 2006 9:08 pm
Aloha All,
The eBay seller states "According to Dolph Overton (the owner), there is some reference to 7 DEC 41 in the history of N9612 in the book "The Ford Tri-Motor 1926-1992" by W.T. Larkins.
"Bill" Larkins responded, "So the only solid information that I have is that NC-9612 was registered to an owner with a Honolulu address in December 1941. Everything else is hearsay and speculation. If you have had any dealings eith the CAA/FAA Register over the years I am sure you have found lots of cases where the plane is nowhere near the address given for the owner. The plane can be physically in another state for tax purposes, a second home, cheaper rent etc etc."
K-T Flying Service, the owner in 1941, had two facilities...one in Hawaii and one on the mainland.
Thus we come to the reported bullet holes. Will Auen, who photographed these repaired holes, responded:
"The size and spacing of the holes in the skin panel are a possibility of 30mm bullets on a strafing pass. The corrigation spacing is 1 inch. The picture is of the inside of the skin. You can see the rivet pattern of the square patch on the outside."
Will Auen also added, "During the restoration of 9612 we had an old man arrive that had to be helped into the hanger by his son. He wanted to see the Ford. He said that in 1941, while stationed in Hawaii, he had taken a sightseeing flight in that airplane. This is a second piece of evidence that a Ford was in Hawaii before the Japanese attack."
While I can not address the witness, I have regrets about the "bullet holes"...given the speed of the Zero and the extremely slow rate of fire of the Zero's 20mm cannon (1)the three hits are too close together (2) the three hits are in TOO straight of a line and measured exactly the same distance apart(3)there are too many 'hits' in too close proximity to have come from the 20mm cannon OR the 7.7 mm machine gun.
I still look for evidence, but I hold little hope for the original thesis from eBay about a "Pearl Harbor" connection.
Cheers,
David
The eBay seller states "According to Dolph Overton (the owner), there is some reference to 7 DEC 41 in the history of N9612 in the book "The Ford Tri-Motor 1926-1992" by W.T. Larkins.
"Bill" Larkins responded, "So the only solid information that I have is that NC-9612 was registered to an owner with a Honolulu address in December 1941. Everything else is hearsay and speculation. If you have had any dealings eith the CAA/FAA Register over the years I am sure you have found lots of cases where the plane is nowhere near the address given for the owner. The plane can be physically in another state for tax purposes, a second home, cheaper rent etc etc."
K-T Flying Service, the owner in 1941, had two facilities...one in Hawaii and one on the mainland.
Thus we come to the reported bullet holes. Will Auen, who photographed these repaired holes, responded:
"The size and spacing of the holes in the skin panel are a possibility of 30mm bullets on a strafing pass. The corrigation spacing is 1 inch. The picture is of the inside of the skin. You can see the rivet pattern of the square patch on the outside."
Will Auen also added, "During the restoration of 9612 we had an old man arrive that had to be helped into the hanger by his son. He wanted to see the Ford. He said that in 1941, while stationed in Hawaii, he had taken a sightseeing flight in that airplane. This is a second piece of evidence that a Ford was in Hawaii before the Japanese attack."
While I can not address the witness, I have regrets about the "bullet holes"...given the speed of the Zero and the extremely slow rate of fire of the Zero's 20mm cannon (1)the three hits are too close together (2) the three hits are in TOO straight of a line and measured exactly the same distance apart(3)there are too many 'hits' in too close proximity to have come from the 20mm cannon OR the 7.7 mm machine gun.
I still look for evidence, but I hold little hope for the original thesis from eBay about a "Pearl Harbor" connection.
Cheers,
David
Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:47 am
There was something in a Flight Journal a couple years ago about a Trimotor undergoing restoration that had survived the attack.
Hollywood bullet stitch
Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:42 am
One other thing that occurred to me about the projectile damage on the
Tri-Motor. Wouldn't there be some damage to adjacent structure of the
aircraft caused by the projectile's passing through...especially cannon
rounds???
As for the "Hollywood bullet stitch"...I've been eyewitness to, or read of
TOO MANY flukes or coincidences in my years to offhandly discount the
possibilities of this purported evidence. But it does give one pause for
thought in lieu of period documentation.
Tri-Motor. Wouldn't there be some damage to adjacent structure of the
aircraft caused by the projectile's passing through...especially cannon
rounds???
As for the "Hollywood bullet stitch"...I've been eyewitness to, or read of
TOO MANY flukes or coincidences in my years to offhandly discount the
possibilities of this purported evidence. But it does give one pause for
thought in lieu of period documentation.