Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Sat May 30, 2015 6:27 pm
Thanks.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:52 am
Why not "move" the restoration shop outside of the base? Granted, no easy task, but would this not solve the "behind the scenes tour" restriction?
Just trying to think of positive solutions or possibilities.
Just trying to think of positive solutions or possibilities.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:49 am
We did the Behind the Scenes Tour a couple years ago; it was wonderful by the way. It only ran 1 day per week and we had to sign up well in advance and provide personal data for positive ID. Upon arrival, we were signed in, ID verified, kept separated from the rest of the museum visitors, and given a safety & security briefing. There was a head count on and off the bus at each point. The process was logical and well controlled. I am not aware of any case of an Annex visitor straying off and wandering the base, certainly no reports of criminal behavior.
I am a retired USAF officer and personally familiar with base security and THREATCON measures. Groups of civilians visit bases routinely for a variety of events every week and security is managed at facilities nationwide. It is clear to me that "where there is a will, there is a way". Leadership decided it was not worth providing this tour nor finding a compromise to provide the tour in some modified form or fashion. No amount of gee-whiz corporate-speak or benefit of the doubt talk will change my assessment based on the execution of similar policy witnessed in the course of my own career.
Ken
I am a retired USAF officer and personally familiar with base security and THREATCON measures. Groups of civilians visit bases routinely for a variety of events every week and security is managed at facilities nationwide. It is clear to me that "where there is a will, there is a way". Leadership decided it was not worth providing this tour nor finding a compromise to provide the tour in some modified form or fashion. No amount of gee-whiz corporate-speak or benefit of the doubt talk will change my assessment based on the execution of similar policy witnessed in the course of my own career.
Ken
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:34 pm
NO military official or government employee would dream of allowing the possibility of civilians getting hurt on a base if it could be simply avoided.
Erring to the side of caution is the default mode for the government and always has been. Better to say no than risk a career hit if something goes wrong and someone above asks, "Why didn't you stop this from happening?"
It's da for the fans, but hardly any surprise. I was an Army officer back in the day, and I'd probably have made the same call if it'd been mine to make.
Erring to the side of caution is the default mode for the government and always has been. Better to say no than risk a career hit if something goes wrong and someone above asks, "Why didn't you stop this from happening?"
It's da for the fans, but hardly any surprise. I was an Army officer back in the day, and I'd probably have made the same call if it'd been mine to make.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:34 pm
p51 wrote:NO military official or government employee would dream of allowing the possibility of civilians getting hurt on a base if it could be simply avoided.
Erring to the side of caution is the default mode for the government and always has been. Better to say no than risk a career hit if something goes wrong and someone above asks, "Why didn't you stop this from happening?"
It's da for the fans, but hardly any surprise. I was an Army officer back in the day, and I'd probably have made the same call if it'd been mine to make.
It isn't much of a mystery to me why it happened. It doesn't surprise me. My point is that it is a false premise. The base is a "green zone" type of environment, secured access, behind a fence with armed guards, all sorts of Id, a purpose behind the visit, showing registration, insurance, perhaps even an inspection of the vehicle. You have to go through the insecure "civilian zone" to even get to the the front gate of the base. Somehow the fact that they aren't letting me into the secured area with armed guards, but they are perfectly ok with my area being in the insecure area doesn't make me feel any safer. The reality is that the museum, which has thousands of visitors, which is essentially "on base" albeit not an active area, would be a much better target. It has more casualty potential and than the base itself. There are many more people in close proximity, they don't have as rigorous security, yet they aren't closing it down. The aren't closing the borders down. If they want to get serious about this stuff why don't they make a serious effort to secure the nation as a whole as opposed to only the little secure, fenced in area that has the military behind it? That is what tells me it has nothing to do with my safety, and it only has to do with the safety of those inside the gate.
Ryan
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:27 am
I would guess that the biggest issue is that the bus to and from the R&D and restoration hangars allows folks to see elements of the base they'd rather you don't see. Google Maps doesn't get you everything. Anyone planning a terrorist attack could pay the $5 or whatever to do the tour and then get a good view of what they want to hit.
There's usually a reason for this kind of thing. We might not agree with it and it may be stupid, but there's usually a semi-logical reason.
All that said...super disappointed that I never went on the restoration hangar tour. Just took it for granted I guess.
There's usually a reason for this kind of thing. We might not agree with it and it may be stupid, but there's usually a semi-logical reason.
All that said...super disappointed that I never went on the restoration hangar tour. Just took it for granted I guess.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:48 am
Is this also affecting other museums? I was interested in seeing Peterson when I was in Denver last week but their web site says they are not accepting passes for non-DOD visitors due to enhanced base security. I guess there are not as many museums located on base as there used to be, but it would be sad if this turns more museums into private military collections.
August
August
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:16 am
I was responsible for the security of a large SAC airbase and aircraft during the cold war. Back then, many of the increased security measures triggered by external events were knee-jerk reactions and mostly window dressing. CONUS bases would increase security if someone shot at a serviceman in Italy. It was just some wing kings covering their azz, and they knew full well their actions were irrelevant. I doubt if anything has changed much over the years.
Today, same as then, many military bases (and large airports) have nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire as perimeter security in places, originally designed to keep livestock from wandering onto runways. Any terrorist with more than two brain cells knows there are easier entrances than the front gates, but that is where many increases are targeted.
One of my duties in the USAF was to play the bad guy, and conduct terrorist training exercises against defending security forces. I became quite unpopular when I wrote a report identifying security vulnerabilities and suggested improvements. Foolish me. I thought they were serious about security. One flaw I mentioned was having six nuclear-loaded bombers parked a few hundred feet from a civilian highway, with densely wooded, uninhabited land on the opposite side of the road. The only thing between a sniper's bullet triggering a “radiological event”, was a thin snow shelter made of .030 tin. I was bluntly told to shut up. Seems the Wing CC and Base CC didn't want to spend a fraction of their discretionary millions to improve security, when that money could be spent on two golf courses, the base marina, the O-club, the flying club, daily catered meals, new furniture for the AAPA Alert Facility, repainting the entire base twice in three years, etc.
The spouses and children of military members were considered cannon fodder and were utilized to stop a terrorist car bomb from entering the base. Whenever the base received a detailed threat, the gate guards would stop all incoming and outgoing vehicular traffic, checking IDs and releasing one car at a time, to deliberately create a 2-way traffic jam. We assumed the terrorist would either leave, or detonate his car bomb against the civilians waiting at the gate. Too bad for them. During the late 1980s- early 1990s, this policy was put into action dozens of times at my base. Today, some bases have physical gates to stop traffic, instead of just a cop with a whistle. However, cars full of women and children will still be waiting at those closed gates when Achmed arrives. They are an easy target, and terrorists have already shot up traffic at the CIA headquarters.
The USAF Security Forces also practiced the organized combat of, and shooting of protesters, under a program called “Confrontation Management”. Ballistic vests, helmets, batons and M-16s. If we found ourselves confronted by a larger group with hostile intent, we were authorized to shoot our way to safety. Our “Emergency Service Teams” rivaled then-current SWAT teams, but had far fewer rules to follow. We killed bad guys in urban environments, and didn't have to consider innocent bystanders who unfortunately got in the way. The Wing Public Relations office had pre-written plans and statements for every situation, to placate the sheeple.
There were some interesting conversations amongst the wing kings and Sqdn CCs in Wing Battle Staff after completion of ORIs. Having launched the first wave of bombers and sent waves 2 & 3 to remote sites, official USAF policy was that everyone shelter on base (in mostly above-ground wood frame buildings) and continue in their present jobs, despite the base no longer having a mission, or aircraft. Unofficially, the senior people had plans to leave the state at 90mph when the last bomber lifted off on a real-world strike. Peons like junior officers and enlisted, and their families, were just gonna have to eat those incoming Russian ICBMs all by themselves. One of my checklists even had a space for me to record the details of each exploding ICBM.
On the civilian airport side, I've worked on the SIDA and the actual increased security since 9-11 is pretty sad. Some days getting a loaded work van past TSA onto the ramp was a major hassle, other days I got waved right through. I was tempted several times to photograph the airport cops, sound asleep in their cars at 3am. It is very easy for baggage handlers to smuggle out stolen luggage items, and just as easy to smuggle in explosives. The aircraft refuelers have an average employment stay of around three months and they have direct access to the fuel systems on aircraft. Some of the people hired to clean airliners couldn't get jobs in fast food places, and they are allowed poorly supervised, midnight access to dozens of hiding spots on airliners. Some don't understand any English and need a translator buddy. Each time I went through annual airport security screening class, when the instructor announced everyone would undergo criminal background checks, 5-10 new hires would quit on the spot. I used to enjoy photographing aircraft, but haven't done so in 10+ years, since someone reported me, and the Keystone cops responded with drawn sidearms. At the time, I was on an FBO ramp, half a mile from the SIDA, wearing a work uniform and ramp badge. I could have gotten better photos from one of the designated “Aircraft Viewing Areas” the city built, for civilians to observe the activities of a large airport. No terrorist would ever think to use those for criminal surveillance. And NO, the airport operations officers do not want to hear about their lousy security.
We're all just cannon fodder. But, a govt PR flunky will happily issue a statement expressing their deepest sympathy over the tragic deaths of our family, and their strong desire to bring those responsible to justice. And then they'll go back to texting their friends about the latest Kardashian trainwreck.
Today, same as then, many military bases (and large airports) have nothing more than a few strands of barbed wire as perimeter security in places, originally designed to keep livestock from wandering onto runways. Any terrorist with more than two brain cells knows there are easier entrances than the front gates, but that is where many increases are targeted.
One of my duties in the USAF was to play the bad guy, and conduct terrorist training exercises against defending security forces. I became quite unpopular when I wrote a report identifying security vulnerabilities and suggested improvements. Foolish me. I thought they were serious about security. One flaw I mentioned was having six nuclear-loaded bombers parked a few hundred feet from a civilian highway, with densely wooded, uninhabited land on the opposite side of the road. The only thing between a sniper's bullet triggering a “radiological event”, was a thin snow shelter made of .030 tin. I was bluntly told to shut up. Seems the Wing CC and Base CC didn't want to spend a fraction of their discretionary millions to improve security, when that money could be spent on two golf courses, the base marina, the O-club, the flying club, daily catered meals, new furniture for the AAPA Alert Facility, repainting the entire base twice in three years, etc.
The spouses and children of military members were considered cannon fodder and were utilized to stop a terrorist car bomb from entering the base. Whenever the base received a detailed threat, the gate guards would stop all incoming and outgoing vehicular traffic, checking IDs and releasing one car at a time, to deliberately create a 2-way traffic jam. We assumed the terrorist would either leave, or detonate his car bomb against the civilians waiting at the gate. Too bad for them. During the late 1980s- early 1990s, this policy was put into action dozens of times at my base. Today, some bases have physical gates to stop traffic, instead of just a cop with a whistle. However, cars full of women and children will still be waiting at those closed gates when Achmed arrives. They are an easy target, and terrorists have already shot up traffic at the CIA headquarters.
The USAF Security Forces also practiced the organized combat of, and shooting of protesters, under a program called “Confrontation Management”. Ballistic vests, helmets, batons and M-16s. If we found ourselves confronted by a larger group with hostile intent, we were authorized to shoot our way to safety. Our “Emergency Service Teams” rivaled then-current SWAT teams, but had far fewer rules to follow. We killed bad guys in urban environments, and didn't have to consider innocent bystanders who unfortunately got in the way. The Wing Public Relations office had pre-written plans and statements for every situation, to placate the sheeple.
There were some interesting conversations amongst the wing kings and Sqdn CCs in Wing Battle Staff after completion of ORIs. Having launched the first wave of bombers and sent waves 2 & 3 to remote sites, official USAF policy was that everyone shelter on base (in mostly above-ground wood frame buildings) and continue in their present jobs, despite the base no longer having a mission, or aircraft. Unofficially, the senior people had plans to leave the state at 90mph when the last bomber lifted off on a real-world strike. Peons like junior officers and enlisted, and their families, were just gonna have to eat those incoming Russian ICBMs all by themselves. One of my checklists even had a space for me to record the details of each exploding ICBM.
On the civilian airport side, I've worked on the SIDA and the actual increased security since 9-11 is pretty sad. Some days getting a loaded work van past TSA onto the ramp was a major hassle, other days I got waved right through. I was tempted several times to photograph the airport cops, sound asleep in their cars at 3am. It is very easy for baggage handlers to smuggle out stolen luggage items, and just as easy to smuggle in explosives. The aircraft refuelers have an average employment stay of around three months and they have direct access to the fuel systems on aircraft. Some of the people hired to clean airliners couldn't get jobs in fast food places, and they are allowed poorly supervised, midnight access to dozens of hiding spots on airliners. Some don't understand any English and need a translator buddy. Each time I went through annual airport security screening class, when the instructor announced everyone would undergo criminal background checks, 5-10 new hires would quit on the spot. I used to enjoy photographing aircraft, but haven't done so in 10+ years, since someone reported me, and the Keystone cops responded with drawn sidearms. At the time, I was on an FBO ramp, half a mile from the SIDA, wearing a work uniform and ramp badge. I could have gotten better photos from one of the designated “Aircraft Viewing Areas” the city built, for civilians to observe the activities of a large airport. No terrorist would ever think to use those for criminal surveillance. And NO, the airport operations officers do not want to hear about their lousy security.
We're all just cannon fodder. But, a govt PR flunky will happily issue a statement expressing their deepest sympathy over the tragic deaths of our family, and their strong desire to bring those responsible to justice. And then they'll go back to texting their friends about the latest Kardashian trainwreck.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:02 am
Go up to the main gate at Wright Pat. Tell them.
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:35 pm
Except the aircraft we're talking a out are not considered to be on public display. They're either under restoration or in storage.
SN
SN
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:15 pm
Looks like the restoration tour is starting again next week
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/s ... =123451290
http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/news/s ... =123451290
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:44 pm
Gladly noting news and withholding unnecessary comment. 
Ken
Ken
Re: Behind the scenes tours at the NMUSAF cancelled
Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:40 pm
Cool! I'm a bit surprised that they're starting the Pres/R&D tours back up, since those aircraft are slated to be moved in a few months. Of course, I've been told that the Presidential collection is one of the museum's most popular exhibits.
SN
SN