Hawker Hunter down in UK today>

Firebird · **Posted:** Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:51 pm

hbtcoveralls wrote:

Flaps may have been extended for the routine in general, being low speed maneuvering of a high speed aircraft

Yes, used in the Hunter for low speed ACM indeed............but, max speed for flaps is 300kts from what I've read, yet the recommended entry speed for a loop is 450kts.....so hence the ? about being seeing any flap setting at the start of the initial pull-up...??

Kyleb · **Posted:** Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:50 pm

IMO, it looks like a barrel roll that accidentally transitioned into a loop at the top. The difference in recovery altitude between a 90 degree nose down attitude and a 60 (or whatever) nose down attitude is substantial.

Bradburger · **Posted:** Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:32 pm

A very tragic accident, in what has been a bad year, in all forms of aviation.

Apparently, the pilot (yet to be officially named), survived the crash, and is now fighting for his life.

I think it's a bit early to harp on about the merits of 'vertical maneuvers', 'aggressive flying' 'stop the airshow' etc.

Accidents do, and will happen, aerobatics or no aerobatics.

From the footage I've seen, it seems to that the accident maneuver was not a planned part of the display, and was the result of something which only the pilot would know.

I'm sure the CAA will take review of UK ex-military jet operations, and of course air show safety.

Cheers

Paul

quemerford · **Joined:** Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:19 pm **Posts:** 1610

Matt Gunsch wrote:

Firebird wrote:

hbtcoveralls wrote:

That is truly terrible, the classic show routine error, mis-judged low level loop trying to correct by hauling back on the stick and in the process exceeding the critical angle of attack. At that altitude there's no way out and you hit the ground pancaking in a deep stall.

Flaps may have dropped/failed prior to loop entry on on initial pull up......and pilot not been aware to allow abandoning manoevure at top of loop....?

it appears that the flaps are down in the this photo as well

Two photos taken on different occasions: I suspect the second was taken during landing.

Bradburger · **Posted:** Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:49 pm

quemerford wrote:

Two photos taken on different occasions: I suspect the second was taken during landing.

No, it wasn't.

It didn't land,or take off from Shoreham!

The last picture was taken just before the impact.

Having watched several Hunter displays, my understanding is the pilots will use about 20 deg of flaps at stages during their display, to keep speed under control, or during certain maneuvers.

Cheers

Paul

quemerford · **Joined:** Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:19 pm **Posts:** 1610

Bradburger wrote:

quemerford wrote:

Two photos taken on different occasions: I suspect the second was taken during landing.

No, it wasn't.

It didn't land,or take off from Shoreham!

The last picture was taken just before the impact.

Cheers

Paul

Well unless the drop tanks fell off before it crashed, it was taken sometime else!

Look again.

Edit: it's me who needs to look again - I was sure the externals were absent in the second shot, but I believe they are: it's my habitual distrust of anything in the Daily Mail I'm afraid! Apologies

:drink3:

jspott · **Joined:** Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:04 pm **Posts:** 47

fiftycal wrote:

:drink3:

crude and tasteless.

flightsimer · **Posted:** Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:56 pm

quemerford wrote:

Bradburger wrote:

quemerford wrote:

Two photos taken on different occasions: I suspect the second was taken during landing.

No, it wasn't.

It didn't land,or take off from Shoreham!

The last picture was taken just before the impact.

Cheers

Paul

Well unless the drop tanks fell off before it crashed, it was taken sometime else!

Look again.

Edit: it's me who needs to look again - I was sure the externals were absent in the second shot, but I believe they are: it's my habitual distrust of anything in the Daily Mail I'm afraid! Apologies

:drink3:

No your right, both pylons on the left wing in the bottom photo are empty.

Invader26 · **Joined:** Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:56 am **Posts:** 843

There are pylons outboard of the tanks. See other pics...

Also not in the landing phase in that pic as no gear down.

A sad day for all...

PeterA · **Posted:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:48 am

quemerford wrote:

Bradburger wrote:

quemerford wrote:

Two photos taken on different occasions: I suspect the second was taken during landing.

No, it wasn't.

It didn't land,or take off from Shoreham!

The last picture was taken just before the impact.

Cheers

Paul

Well unless the drop tanks fell off before it crashed, it was taken sometime else!

Look again.

Edit: it's me who needs to look again - I was sure the externals were absent in the second shot, but I believe they are: it's my habitual distrust of anything in the Daily Mail I'm afraid! Apologies

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sh ... er-6302974

TOM WALSH · **Posted:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:30 am

As part of the overall safety package for conducting a safe air show, ((aside from flying), the event organizers, local police and governments must ensure to keep the roadways surrounding the perimeter of an airfield clear of people and traffic. Sometimes you have to take action to protect people from themselves.

Cheers,

Tom Walsh.

Mike · **Joined:** Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am **Posts:** 3331

TOM WALSH wrote:

As part of the overall safety package for conducting a safe air show, ((aside from flying), the event organizers, local police and governments must ensure to keep the roadways surrounding the perimeter of an airfield clear of people and traffic. Sometimes you have to take action to protect people from themselves.

Cheers,

Tom Walsh.

You are quoting N.American regulations, there is no requirement for a sterile 'box' in Europe. The road passing the field was the major east-west trunk road along the south coast of the UK

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:54 am

Mike wrote:

TOM WALSH wrote:

As part of the overall safety package for conducting a safe air show, ((aside from flying), the event organizers, local police and governments must ensure to keep the roadways surrounding the perimeter of an airfield clear of people and traffic. Sometimes you have to take action to protect people from themselves.

Cheers,

Tom Walsh.

You are quoting N.American regulations, there is no requirement for a sterile 'box' in Europe. The road passing the field was the major east-west trunk road along the south coast of the UK

It's not exactly sterile around a lot of airshows at US Air Force bases, either.

maxum96 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:36 am

flightsimer wrote:

No your right, both pylons on the left wing in the bottom photo are empty.

Look again closely. You can just see the latter portion of the left drop tank inboard of the outer pylon.

And then there's this photo taken a split second later or from a different angle. Both tanks are there.

James D · **Posted:** Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:51 am

hbtcoveralls wrote:

That is truly terrible, the classic show routine error, mis-judged low level loop trying to correct by hauling back on the stick and in the process exceeding the critical angle of attack. At that altitude there's no way out and you hit the ground pancaking in a deep stall. It hurts even more because I've seen it in person, at a different airshow, and I've seen it so often on video. Condolences to all concerned, maybe it will eventually be time to do away with low level aerobatics at airshows once and for all. Too many good people gone.
Tom Bowers

I was there and he had plenty of height.
The "oh dear" video shows it much better, but he just dropped like the engine had gone out.

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