G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:11 pm
I probably have a screw loose, but looking for any insight on operating a G21 Goose.
Seems like engine wise, it should be roughly on par with operating a Beech 18, but how hard is it to find airframe and other associated parts?
Can anyone at Wix point me in the right direction?
Seems like engine wise, it should be roughly on par with operating a Beech 18, but how hard is it to find airframe and other associated parts?
Can anyone at Wix point me in the right direction?
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:27 pm
A friend is restoring one from a complete looking, but un-airworthy, museum example.
It sounds like it pays to have friends when it comes to finding parts. Luckily, he's been able to do some trading with guys who have spare parts (an example is he traded two never used Duck floats for 3 beat up Goose floats...from which they rebuilt a pair. Likewise, he found parts in Canada from a current operator of the type.
It won't be flying until the spring, so flying maintenance issues are still unknown.
My friend makes it look easy, but he's restored nearly 20 antique aircraft, is an engineer by profession, and has a large fully-equipped workshop.
In other words...don't try this at home.
It sounds like it pays to have friends when it comes to finding parts. Luckily, he's been able to do some trading with guys who have spare parts (an example is he traded two never used Duck floats for 3 beat up Goose floats...from which they rebuilt a pair. Likewise, he found parts in Canada from a current operator of the type.
It won't be flying until the spring, so flying maintenance issues are still unknown.
My friend makes it look easy, but he's restored nearly 20 antique aircraft, is an engineer by profession, and has a large fully-equipped workshop.
In other words...don't try this at home.
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:30 pm
JohnB wrote:A friend is restoring one from a complete looking, but un-airworthy, museum example.
It sounds like it pays to have friends when it comes to finding parts. Luckily, he's been able to do some trading with guys who have spare parts (an example is he traded two never used Duck floats for 3 beat up Goose floats...from which they rebuilt a pair. Likewise, he found parts in Canada from a current operator of the type.
It won't be flying until the spring, so flying maintenance issues are still unknown.
My friend makes it look easy, but he's restored nearly 20 antique aircraft, is an engineer by profession, and has a large fully-equipped workshop.
In other words...don't try this at home.
Out of curiosity, did your friend buy the Goose that was at the Palm Springs museum?
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:41 pm
Fearless Tower wrote: Out of curiosity, did your friend buy the Goose that was at the Palm Springs museum?
Yep. That's the one. N95467, c/n 1161, an ex-British model JRF-6B.
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:25 pm
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:48 am
airknocker wrote:http://grummangoosecentral.homestead.com/
That resource is a bit out-of-date and has not been kept current so much since Eddie Haynes died several years ago in a house fire in Alaska. (There's a thread about him in here somewhere - easy enough to search for...) The Web site content was taken over by Chris Bell who lives in the Long Beach, CA area and had his own previous Web site dedicated to the golden age of seaplane service to Catalina Island (http://www.catalinagoose.com/)
Better bets , although I still find errors in both (not surprising given the volume of data involved) are Australian Geoff Goodall's Goose database http://www.goodall.com.au/grumman-amphibians/grummangoose.pdf and Brit Fred Knight's new book "The Grumman Amphibians: Goose, Widgeon, & Mallard" published in the UK by Air Britain Historians.
Actually the Eddie Haynes thread that I was thinking of is on the UK-based Seawings' Flyingboat forum: http://theflyingboatforum.forumlaunch.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1199
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:30 pm
We purchased one of the Pennair aircraft (N985R) from Alaska in 2012. It is now here in Stow, MA. It flew from AK to MA mostly over Canada in 5 days or so. Parts availability outside of the standard consumables can be difficult as they were mostly operated by just a few carriers for many years. Engines, tires and such are fairly standard, so once and aircraft is complete and flying, it is not difficult to get what you need to keep it going.
As a side note, you get a lot of attention when you show up at the lake with the Goose. You have a steady stream of onlookers in their non-flying boats going by to take a look. We have a lot of interesting aircraft here that I get to fly in, and the Goose is very near the top on the fun level.
As a side note, you get a lot of attention when you show up at the lake with the Goose. You have a steady stream of onlookers in their non-flying boats going by to take a look. We have a lot of interesting aircraft here that I get to fly in, and the Goose is very near the top on the fun level.
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:35 pm
Hi Fearless,
Since JohnB brought up the project I might as well chime in. We got the airplane as a structurally complete but mostly gutted project in December, 2011 and really started restoring it November, 2012. We've worked through the center section, fuselage, tail feathers, landing gear, flight deck, cabin and are now working on FWF and the outer wing panels.
To answer your question, what kmiles said is pretty accurate. There are a few Goose-specific type parts that have taken some real scrounging to source but once the airplane is flying I think it will be fairly easy to maintain/operate. The airplane is really very simple and EXTREMELY well built. I've been involved in many projects from probably 6-8 different manufacturers, and Grumman tops the list IMHO for design quality. Anyway, the flaps are vacuum, the gear is hand crank (or, can be modified to use an electric "booster" motor but that is just a generic Y-150), the flight controls are simple cables and push-pull tubes. The wheels and breaks can be a variable. There is an STC for Cleveland wheels and breaks which should make the maintenance/operation pretty nice. The parts for that conversion are available but extremely expensive (I think a full wheel/break kit for the airplane is something like $50,000. We would like to replace just half of one wheel and have had several people turn down $4000 offers!
). Obviously the 985 is bullet-proof and very well supported.
The "gotcha's" I can think of right now:
1) It has two fuel tanks, 110 gal each in the center section. It is pretty standard "wet wing" tanks, but if this is old you'll have fuel leaks just like any old wet-wing airplane. The center section is pretty complicated and very "beefy" so if you need to do ANYTHING there, including maintaining fuel tanks, you'll be in for a big job.
2) We have had some trouble sourcing the elevator and rudder trim parts. There is a gear box driving a flex cable drive, which runs a drum, which turns cables to the back of the airplane, wound around another drum, driving another flex drive cable, which then drives another little gearbox/jack screw which actuates the tabs. The gearboxes, flex drive cables and drums have all been difficult for us to find (although now we've got everything we need). These aren't really common parts to need, but I'd guess there are several Gooses out there that have one or more of these components worn and needing replaced.
3) Like I said, the wheels and brakes are very expensive. The old original brakes are probably cheaper to maintain, but would require more scrounging and they just generally really suck...
4) There seems to be two generations of exhaust collectors. The earlier one is pretty maintenance intensive (I'm told). You can have a brand new collector set built up by Acorn if you've got big pockets but there is SOME good condition, original, late style exhaust stuff out there. Just something to keep in the back of your head.
That's what I know. Big picture, there are 4-7 active Goose restorations going on right now (including us, depending on how you count) so there is support and knowledge for the airplane out there. Pacific Coastal in Port Hardy, BC still operates 2-4 Gooses at any given time and they have pretty good parts inventory (although their main goal is to keep their airplanes flying, not make money selling Goose parts). Like kmiles said, I think the airplane will be a blast. Basically a Beech 18 (very fun in it's own right) but amphibious, and BETTER!
Check out our Goose restoration gallery on our Facebook page (public page so you don't have to be on FB to see it) for some drool material: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151116963488785.440136.187204493784&type=3
Since JohnB brought up the project I might as well chime in. We got the airplane as a structurally complete but mostly gutted project in December, 2011 and really started restoring it November, 2012. We've worked through the center section, fuselage, tail feathers, landing gear, flight deck, cabin and are now working on FWF and the outer wing panels.
To answer your question, what kmiles said is pretty accurate. There are a few Goose-specific type parts that have taken some real scrounging to source but once the airplane is flying I think it will be fairly easy to maintain/operate. The airplane is really very simple and EXTREMELY well built. I've been involved in many projects from probably 6-8 different manufacturers, and Grumman tops the list IMHO for design quality. Anyway, the flaps are vacuum, the gear is hand crank (or, can be modified to use an electric "booster" motor but that is just a generic Y-150), the flight controls are simple cables and push-pull tubes. The wheels and breaks can be a variable. There is an STC for Cleveland wheels and breaks which should make the maintenance/operation pretty nice. The parts for that conversion are available but extremely expensive (I think a full wheel/break kit for the airplane is something like $50,000. We would like to replace just half of one wheel and have had several people turn down $4000 offers!
). Obviously the 985 is bullet-proof and very well supported. The "gotcha's" I can think of right now:
1) It has two fuel tanks, 110 gal each in the center section. It is pretty standard "wet wing" tanks, but if this is old you'll have fuel leaks just like any old wet-wing airplane. The center section is pretty complicated and very "beefy" so if you need to do ANYTHING there, including maintaining fuel tanks, you'll be in for a big job.
2) We have had some trouble sourcing the elevator and rudder trim parts. There is a gear box driving a flex cable drive, which runs a drum, which turns cables to the back of the airplane, wound around another drum, driving another flex drive cable, which then drives another little gearbox/jack screw which actuates the tabs. The gearboxes, flex drive cables and drums have all been difficult for us to find (although now we've got everything we need). These aren't really common parts to need, but I'd guess there are several Gooses out there that have one or more of these components worn and needing replaced.
3) Like I said, the wheels and brakes are very expensive. The old original brakes are probably cheaper to maintain, but would require more scrounging and they just generally really suck...
4) There seems to be two generations of exhaust collectors. The earlier one is pretty maintenance intensive (I'm told). You can have a brand new collector set built up by Acorn if you've got big pockets but there is SOME good condition, original, late style exhaust stuff out there. Just something to keep in the back of your head.
That's what I know. Big picture, there are 4-7 active Goose restorations going on right now (including us, depending on how you count) so there is support and knowledge for the airplane out there. Pacific Coastal in Port Hardy, BC still operates 2-4 Gooses at any given time and they have pretty good parts inventory (although their main goal is to keep their airplanes flying, not make money selling Goose parts). Like kmiles said, I think the airplane will be a blast. Basically a Beech 18 (very fun in it's own right) but amphibious, and BETTER!
Check out our Goose restoration gallery on our Facebook page (public page so you don't have to be on FB to see it) for some drool material: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151116963488785.440136.187204493784&type=3
Re: G21 Goose - Maintainability?
Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:45 pm
Contact Ernie Persich at Vintage Wings and Wheels. He has maintained several over the years, knows the airframe well and has a good insight into what it takes to properly maintain one cost wise etc.